Back to the channels

#java

00:43 steve0 seen freeone3000
00:55 NeXeN nope
02:54 dreamreal not sure where freeone3000 is, haven't seen him for a while
04:45 NeXeN evening dreamreal
04:45 NeXeN nice songs, btw, i don't remember the refrains but i listened to a few
10:38 dreamreal NeXeN: which did you listen to? On what medium?
12:48 dreamreal https://bytecode.news/posts/2026/03/mojarra-5-0-0-m1-released-jakarta-faces-implementation
12:48 javabot dreamreal's title: "Mojarra 5.0.0-M1 released - Jakarta Faces implementation | bytecode.news"
12:49 dreamreal huh, that title shouldn't have triggered javabot
13:03 cheeser mojarra's treachery has disagraced us.
13:03 cheeser it was the tag at the end.
13:04 dreamreal shouldn't have been, but eh
13:05 dreamreal I'm just amused at "jakarta faces" now - that damn jakarta change is going to be subtracting dividends for years
13:05 dmlloyd heh
13:05 dreamreal I also can't find anyone who writes JSF stuff at all
13:05 dmlloyd same
13:07 dmlloyd hey fyi, the Quarkus team hosts an open community call every two weeks on tuesdays (at about this time) which anyone can join; see the bottom of https://quarkus.io/support/ for more info
13:07 javabot dmlloyd's title: "Support When You Need It - Quarkus"
13:07 nevet Support When You Need It
13:08 dreamreal Do people use quarkus? *runs*
13:08 dmlloyd people *and* AI agents!
13:08 dreamreal hahaha
13:08 dreamreal dmlloyd: ++
13:08 nevet dmlloyd now has karma of 2.
19:56 jbosmans way back when i thought JSF was amazing right up until i understood REST & stateless
19:59 jbosmans no quarkus community call recording on youtube as far as i can find
20:00 cheeser JSF was always a standards version of struts with all the "fun" that being a standard brings.
20:04 jbosmans that sorta makes sense, although i always (mis)thought JSF was even more stateful somehow
20:04 * jbosmans && first webapps && struts :')
20:04 jbosmans struts 1.x ofc ^
20:21 jbosmans fwiw, in the right places; jsonb + postgres = win \o/
20:22 * jbosmans replacing 86M row table with JSONB field on other 1.7M row table
20:22 jbosmans beautiful
20:24 jbosmans (it's data that needs to be fetched all together 99.9+% of the time)
20:39 magyar hi guys, is there a way to download the latest cacerts java store file only?
20:40 dreamreal jsf and struts weren't really aligned, though
20:40 dreamreal and jsf is VERY stateful, that's sort of its problem
20:45 cheeser i'd rather write wicket than jsf
20:45 jbosmans wicket :-D
20:46 jbosmans agree dreamreal my thoughts exactly
20:47 jbosmans the tech is great if that's exactly what's needed, otherwise not so much
20:47 dreamreal JSF's state was always going to be a problem: on clientside, it means every connection with the server had to represent serializeable application state. For a moderately complex application.. yikes. For serverside state management, that's a huge hit on memory for a decent userbase. Poison no matter which choice you made.
20:48 jbosmans yeah, "session"
20:48 dreamreal The problem is that there's no "exactly what's needed" that's an ideal state. It can be *convenient* and massively so, but that convenience either hammers server memory or client network time.
20:48 jbosmans i had to put out a bunch of fires like that in my corporate days
20:48 dreamreal You can use JSF on a pure-rest backend platform but at that point.. why are you using JSF?
20:48 jbosmans i think if one knows to "keep the session state light", it can work great
20:49 jbosmans but that's not so easy in and of itself
20:49 jbosmans one leaky ref and there goes/went the appserver (way back when)
20:49 dreamreal Sure, but that works directly against what the design is actually supposed to be: "Sure, use components, whee, components for YOU, components for YOU, components for YOU, components for EVERYBODY! ... but don't use actual JSF components, they're too expensive."
20:50 jbosmans have to say, agree :)
20:51 jbosmans the drag and drop of it all got a bunch of people excited
20:51 jbosmans "no more messy code"
20:51 jbosmans yeah .. :)
20:51 dreamreal I was on the JSF2 JSR for a while, ostensibly to help them figure out how to get non-JSF-experts to use it, but they kept just expecting me to make a silk purse out of a pig's DNA strand
20:51 jbosmans lol
20:51 jbosmans can't change the nature of the beast
20:52 dreamreal "If you can't explain it to ME in such a way where I'm going 'hey this is actually really cool and easy' when I WANT to say that, how do you expect me to explain it to anyone else?"
20:52 jbosmans jsf like everything is a child of its times i guess ?
20:53 dreamreal To some degree. I still think JSF could have been okay but the component marketplace was hidden behind a paywall.
20:53 jbosmans for intranet purposes, in controlled envs, why not (?)
20:53 jbosmans i remember icefaces
20:53 jbosmans and uhm
20:53 dreamreal All the good stuff that could have made it popular was expensive, and that meant that all the people who SHOULD have been championing it were going "hey, AJAX is free, why'm I paying for ..."
20:53 jbosmans forgot the name :')
20:53 dreamreal icefaces, primefaces
20:53 jbosmans primefaces, yes
20:54 dreamreal oracle had a hellaciously good JSF component library... paywalled
20:54 jbosmans those were it afaik
20:54 jbosmans oh yeah
20:54 dreamreal icefaces and primefaces were both good, and honestly ARE still good
20:55 jbosmans speaking for myself i got used to stateless
20:55 jbosmans like most of the world (?)
20:55 dreamreal but if all your components are just UI basics, standard widgets people are familiar with... where's the value proposition? "Whee, I get to have an HTML link as a component and not just HTML. So much winning." But what you REALLY want is a login widget, that supports OIDC or OTP or a good password or whatever. THAT'd be more compelling.
20:55 dmlloyd components all live on the client side now, right?
20:55 dreamreal dmlloyd: did they change the spec?
20:55 dmlloyd no, I mean in general
20:56 jbosmans dmlloyd, exactly
20:56 dmlloyd like I would use a template engine or fully client-side stuff like angular or whatever the new hotness is
20:56 jbosmans components (are) all (made to) live on the client side now, right?
20:56 dreamreal I *think* oracle HAD a login widget and other things like that, but paywalled, so nobody would see it anyway
20:57 dreamreal no ordinary developer would bother: in the late 80s that model worked (how many here bought dbase or clipper?) but by the time Java was around...
20:57 jbosmans a login widget :-D
20:57 dreamreal jbosmans: hey, their library had a LOT of stuff
20:57 jbosmans "gee, how could we ever manage that" :-D
20:58 jbosmans dreamreal, i don't doubt it, different times
20:58 jbosmans it's all come a long way
20:58 dreamreal I remember doing a video with them when they showed their JSF component library, was genuinely impressed until I said "how would *I* get access to that to show it off?"
20:58 dreamreal then they were like "oh, a dev site license is only $2k" or whatever, I forget the number, but I remember having to stifle a laugh
20:59 jbosmans haha yeah
20:59 dreamreal I think they were willing to give me a gratis license, but... uh... no
20:59 jbosmans i still think java was pretty much saved by it being gpl'ed by sun
20:59 dreamreal I couldn't go before a TSS audience and promote something like that in that way
21:00 jbosmans i think that meant the value just wasn't there
21:01 dreamreal I don't know about THAT - but the iron was cold, and that doesn't mean it wasn't worth striking, but there was no way it was going to get critical mass when individual developers were expected to pony up an investment to see what it was
21:01 jbosmans if someone wants to sell you a site license and you know you'll be making 10x profits no matter what, who would hesitate?
21:01 dreamreal sure, but where's the EXPERTISE going to come from?
21:01 jbosmans dreamreal, money :D
21:02 dreamreal yeah, not how the world worked by then.
21:02 jbosmans dreamreal, i'm thinking of post-mcneal sun ceo but what's his name
21:02 jbosmans open sources staroffice/openoffice?
21:02 jbosmans open sourced*
21:03 dreamreal ponyboy!
21:03 dreamreal Um... Jonathan
21:03 dreamreal Schwartz
21:03 cheeser fuck that guy
21:03 dreamreal ponytail
21:03 dreamreal eh
21:03 jbosmans ahhh
21:04 jbosmans yes !!!
21:04 dreamreal mcnealy was the flaw, schwartz did about as best as he could
21:04 jbosmans mcnealy was too oldskool
21:04 dreamreal mcnealy was an engineer
21:04 jbosmans and/or old
21:04 dreamreal ponytail was a marketer
21:04 jbosmans yeah true
21:05 * jbosmans remembers the 3D desktop interface
21:05 dreamreal He was slick as hell
21:05 dreamreal hah, java still has that!
21:05 dreamreal That demo was impressive as hell when they first unleashed it
21:05 jbosmans totally
21:06 dreamreal then they pissed it down the toilet
21:06 jbosmans write notes on the back of the window iirc
21:06 jbosmans the "networked computer"
21:06 jbosmans there was a name for that which escapes me
21:06 dreamreal THAT was a mcnealy thing
21:06 dreamreal JINI
21:06 jbosmans industry caught up to sun's ideas
21:06 dreamreal Not really
21:06 dreamreal JINI's still ahead
21:07 jbosmans not sure
21:07 dreamreal We still go "gee, I wonder if we could use something like LDAP+discovery+UDP, that'd be cool!" and JINI was WAY ahead of all that
21:07 jbosmans the vision wasn't realized
21:07 dreamreal in Solaris it was
21:07 jbosmans i do hear/read that from time to time
21:07 jbosmans ZFS too
21:07 dreamreal being an admin for solaris when you knew how to configure JINI? LIKE BUTTER.
21:08 jbosmans good times
21:08 jbosmans not that i could actually print on my printer from my linux machine, but hey
21:08 jbosmans :)
21:08 dreamreal "oh, we want to add a networked printer: sure, add it here, jini propagates it" - bonjour is still borrowing concepts like that
21:09 jbosmans i want to say, isn't bonjour an apple thing?
21:09 jbosmans is or was
21:09 dreamreal it is, yes
21:09 jbosmans or not at all
21:09 dreamreal even MS has similar concepts, but JINI was ahead of all of them and better
21:09 jbosmans it's like OS/2 allover again
21:10 jbosmans :P
21:10 jbosmans it was way ahead in its time ^
21:11 dreamreal Yeah, OS/2 was another engineering failure. Lots of those around. Like mongodb!
21:11 jbosmans never used mongo :P
21:11 dreamreal ~ping
21:11 javabot The machine that 'kills fascists' has arrived.
21:11 dreamreal now you have.
21:11 dreamreal interesting ping response.
21:12 jbosmans sign of the times?
21:12 jbosmans :)
21:13 dreamreal Yeah, but apparently there's a lot of misunderstanding about what a fascist is: people use it these days as "someone I don't like politically" and that's ... not quite right.
21:13 dreamreal I despise fascists but know very few of them, but I know a lot of people who're being CALLED fascist.
21:15 jbosmans Fourteen Points of Fascism : https://public.websites.umich.edu/~rsc/Editorials/fascism.html
21:17 dreamreal Sure. And by that definition, everyone's partially fascist; it's all a matter of degree. Everyone can point to almost every point and say "see? everyone is fascist" but if everyone is fascist, is anyone? Does the term mean anything at all?
21:18 dreamreal I have a flag in front of my yard - it's an AMERICAN flag! Am I a fascist?
21:18 GreenResponse they’re basically illiberal: undemocratic and chauvinist, fascism is a part boom-bust capitalism cycle
21:19 dreamreal Yet I can point to a lot of these 14 points and say "nope, I'm a vocal opponent of this, of that, of the other, and I support this when fascists aren't supposed to do that, and..."
21:19 dreamreal sure. And the only people who think I'm not a liberal, for example, are the far left who think I'm mostly not liberal ENOUGH.
21:20 dreamreal So I'm not happy with the claims of fascism everywhere, because it makes the REAL fascists muted, and I resent hat.
21:20 jbosmans those points are meant to be combined i think
21:21 dreamreal Sure. Do you think everyone who uses the term knows that?
21:21 DoofusCanadensis i kinda like hat. keeps my hair out of my eyes
21:21 dreamreal DoofusCanadensis: haha
21:21 jbosmans umberto eco knows what he's talking about
21:21 dreamreal jbosmans: I mean, there IS a tipping point, but at some point people overfit and that's a problem.
21:21 jbosmans of course
21:22 jbosmans i agree ^
21:22 dreamreal And i think that overfitting happens A LOT and thus, like the term "nazi," the word 'fascist' should be disincentivized so it loses none of its actual power.
21:22 jbosmans just wanted to say, fascism isn't "something vague" per se
21:22 dreamreal I don't find "grammar pedant" anywhere near as effective as "grammar nazi" but I refuse to water down "nazi" with something as simple as grammar
21:23 jbosmans grammar nazi is funny tho :D
21:23 jbosmans in flemish, it's more like "spelling nazi" i guess
21:23 dreamreal jbosmans: I don't think it's VAGUE anyway: it has a definition, fascism is typically (or, more concessionally, RAPIDLY) toxic.
21:23 dreamreal I'm not sure of a lot of benevolent fascist states, even in the short term, although I'm sure FDR or Abraham Lincoln would disagree
21:23 jbosmans dreamreal, yes, agree
21:24 dreamreal "We're just going to do these things in the SHORT term, right?" and that SORT of worked out, maybe, if you squint? But then you have italy, and a few other notables...
21:25 dreamreal Anyway, it's late, my wife made dinner, as scintillating as you dopes are, she wins
21:25 jbosmans i think i misunderstand the link between fascism and Lincoln/FDR
21:25 jbosmans rightly so :)
21:25 jbosmans have a good evening !
21:25 dreamreal jbosmans: both of them pretty much took over a LOT of the social engine and financial engines to make things limp along better for a correction
21:26 dreamreal there were elements where they struggled to fit the definition (particularly election fraud and, for lincoln, cronyism, also intellectualism wasn't scorned) but both pretty much fit everything else
21:27 dreamreal they'd hit 70% of the definition pretty easily, especially if you weren't predisposed to judging them positively
21:27 jbosmans hmmmm first time i heard that but it's interesting
21:27 dreamreal Well, you're not American, yeah?
21:27 jbosmans well i saw the ken burns docs
21:27 jbosmans *docu's
21:28 jbosmans potentially a bit positive :)
21:29 dreamreal Yeah. Well, both of them pretty much said "I'm going to suspend core aspects of the union to preserve it," and they certainly went through on it, and the question is whether the ends were worth the means: most americans say yes (including me: Lincoln's my #2 president, with washington being an easy #1) but enjoying the fruits of their labors isn't the same as saying they didn't fit the definitions
21:30 dreamreal plato's philosopher-kings were kings because they weren't beholden to slavish compliance to common morality: his concept was that a king who was constrained wouldn't be much of a king. We got to see that with Carter: a fine man, a craptastic president
21:30 jbosmans that totally doesn't cover "fascist" though? I mean, look at the list (for whatever any list is worth)
21:31 dreamreal Well, dinner awaits, but I could show you where they fit MANY of those qualifications, line by line
21:32 jbosmans was good talking ! Enjoy your dinner, to be continued :P
21:32 dreamreal probably 10 of 14 for both of them, with little effort. 70% fascist isn't fascist, maybe?
21:32 dreamreal have a good one, all
21:32 jbosmans yeah it's an exercise in interpreting
21:32 jbosmans nn dreamreal !
22:02 jbosmans having finished spring boot 3.5.7 to 4.0.3, the uber jar shrank from 119mb to 117mb, whii