javabotdreamreal's title: "Mojarra 5.0.0-M1 released - Jakarta Faces implementation | bytecode.news"
dreamrealhuh, that title shouldn't have triggered javabot
cheesermojarra's treachery has disagraced us.
cheeserit was the tag at the end.
dreamrealshouldn't have been, but eh
dreamrealI'm just amused at "jakarta faces" now - that damn jakarta change is going to be subtracting dividends for years
dmlloydheh
dreamrealI also can't find anyone who writes JSF stuff at all
dmlloydsame
dmlloydhey fyi, the Quarkus team hosts an open community call every two weeks on tuesdays (at about this time) which anyone can join; see the bottom of https://quarkus.io/support/ for more info
javabotdmlloyd's title: "Support When You Need It - Quarkus"
nevetSupport When You Need It
dreamrealDo people use quarkus? *runs*
dmlloydpeople *and* AI agents!
dreamrealhahaha
dreamrealdmlloyd: ++
nevetdmlloyd now has karma of 2.
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jbosmansway back when i thought JSF was amazing right up until i understood REST & stateless
jbosmansno quarkus community call recording on youtube as far as i can find
cheeserJSF was always a standards version of struts with all the "fun" that being a standard brings.
jbosmansthat sorta makes sense, although i always (mis)thought JSF was even more stateful somehow
* jbosmans && first webapps && struts :')
jbosmansstruts 1.x ofc ^
jbosmansfwiw, in the right places; jsonb + postgres = win \o/
* jbosmans replacing 86M row table with JSONB field on other 1.7M row table
jbosmansbeautiful
jbosmans(it's data that needs to be fetched all together 99.9+% of the time)
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magyarhi guys, is there a way to download the latest cacerts java store file only?
dreamrealjsf and struts weren't really aligned, though
dreamrealand jsf is VERY stateful, that's sort of its problem
cheeseri'd rather write wicket than jsf
jbosmanswicket :-D
jbosmansagree dreamreal my thoughts exactly
jbosmansthe tech is great if that's exactly what's needed, otherwise not so much
dreamrealJSF's state was always going to be a problem: on clientside, it means every connection with the server had to represent serializeable application state. For a moderately complex application.. yikes. For serverside state management, that's a huge hit on memory for a decent userbase. Poison no matter which choice you made.
jbosmansyeah, "session"
dreamrealThe problem is that there's no "exactly what's needed" that's an ideal state. It can be *convenient* and massively so, but that convenience either hammers server memory or client network time.
jbosmansi had to put out a bunch of fires like that in my corporate days
dreamrealYou can use JSF on a pure-rest backend platform but at that point.. why are you using JSF?
jbosmansi think if one knows to "keep the session state light", it can work great
jbosmansbut that's not so easy in and of itself
jbosmansone leaky ref and there goes/went the appserver (way back when)
dreamrealSure, but that works directly against what the design is actually supposed to be: "Sure, use components, whee, components for YOU, components for YOU, components for YOU, components for EVERYBODY! ... but don't use actual JSF components, they're too expensive."
jbosmanshave to say, agree :)
jbosmansthe drag and drop of it all got a bunch of people excited
jbosmans"no more messy code"
jbosmansyeah .. :)
dreamrealI was on the JSF2 JSR for a while, ostensibly to help them figure out how to get non-JSF-experts to use it, but they kept just expecting me to make a silk purse out of a pig's DNA strand
jbosmanslol
jbosmanscan't change the nature of the beast
dreamreal"If you can't explain it to ME in such a way where I'm going 'hey this is actually really cool and easy' when I WANT to say that, how do you expect me to explain it to anyone else?"
jbosmansjsf like everything is a child of its times i guess ?
dreamrealTo some degree. I still think JSF could have been okay but the component marketplace was hidden behind a paywall.
jbosmansfor intranet purposes, in controlled envs, why not (?)
jbosmansi remember icefaces
jbosmansand uhm
dreamrealAll the good stuff that could have made it popular was expensive, and that meant that all the people who SHOULD have been championing it were going "hey, AJAX is free, why'm I paying for ..."
jbosmansforgot the name :')
dreamrealicefaces, primefaces
jbosmansprimefaces, yes
dreamrealoracle had a hellaciously good JSF component library... paywalled
jbosmansthose were it afaik
jbosmansoh yeah
dreamrealicefaces and primefaces were both good, and honestly ARE still good
jbosmansspeaking for myself i got used to stateless
jbosmanslike most of the world (?)
dreamrealbut if all your components are just UI basics, standard widgets people are familiar with... where's the value proposition? "Whee, I get to have an HTML link as a component and not just HTML. So much winning." But what you REALLY want is a login widget, that supports OIDC or OTP or a good password or whatever. THAT'd be more compelling.
dmlloydcomponents all live on the client side now, right?
dreamrealdmlloyd: did they change the spec?
dmlloydno, I mean in general
jbosmansdmlloyd, exactly
dmlloydlike I would use a template engine or fully client-side stuff like angular or whatever the new hotness is
jbosmanscomponents (are) all (made to) live on the client side now, right?
dreamrealI *think* oracle HAD a login widget and other things like that, but paywalled, so nobody would see it anyway
dreamrealno ordinary developer would bother: in the late 80s that model worked (how many here bought dbase or clipper?) but by the time Java was around...
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jbosmansa login widget :-D
dreamrealjbosmans: hey, their library had a LOT of stuff
jbosmans"gee, how could we ever manage that" :-D
jbosmansdreamreal, i don't doubt it, different times
jbosmansit's all come a long way
dreamrealI remember doing a video with them when they showed their JSF component library, was genuinely impressed until I said "how would *I* get access to that to show it off?"
dreamrealthen they were like "oh, a dev site license is only $2k" or whatever, I forget the number, but I remember having to stifle a laugh
jbosmanshaha yeah
dreamrealI think they were willing to give me a gratis license, but... uh... no
jbosmansi still think java was pretty much saved by it being gpl'ed by sun
dreamrealI couldn't go before a TSS audience and promote something like that in that way
jbosmansi think that meant the value just wasn't there
dreamrealI don't know about THAT - but the iron was cold, and that doesn't mean it wasn't worth striking, but there was no way it was going to get critical mass when individual developers were expected to pony up an investment to see what it was
jbosmansif someone wants to sell you a site license and you know you'll be making 10x profits no matter what, who would hesitate?
dreamrealsure, but where's the EXPERTISE going to come from?
jbosmansdreamreal, money :D
dreamrealyeah, not how the world worked by then.
jbosmansdreamreal, i'm thinking of post-mcneal sun ceo but what's his name
jbosmansopen sources staroffice/openoffice?
jbosmansopen sourced*
dreamrealponyboy!
dreamrealUm... Jonathan
dreamrealSchwartz
cheeserfuck that guy
dreamrealponytail
dreamrealeh
jbosmansahhh
jbosmansyes !!!
dreamrealmcnealy was the flaw, schwartz did about as best as he could
jbosmansmcnealy was too oldskool
dreamrealmcnealy was an engineer
jbosmansand/or old
dreamrealponytail was a marketer
jbosmansyeah true
* jbosmans remembers the 3D desktop interface
dreamrealHe was slick as hell
dreamrealhah, java still has that!
dreamrealThat demo was impressive as hell when they first unleashed it
jbosmanstotally
dreamrealthen they pissed it down the toilet
jbosmanswrite notes on the back of the window iirc
jbosmansthe "networked computer"
jbosmansthere was a name for that which escapes me
dreamrealTHAT was a mcnealy thing
dreamrealJINI
jbosmansindustry caught up to sun's ideas
dreamrealNot really
dreamrealJINI's still ahead
jbosmansnot sure
dreamrealWe still go "gee, I wonder if we could use something like LDAP+discovery+UDP, that'd be cool!" and JINI was WAY ahead of all that
jbosmansthe vision wasn't realized
dreamrealin Solaris it was
jbosmansi do hear/read that from time to time
jbosmansZFS too
dreamrealbeing an admin for solaris when you knew how to configure JINI? LIKE BUTTER.
jbosmansgood times
jbosmansnot that i could actually print on my printer from my linux machine, but hey
jbosmans:)
dreamreal"oh, we want to add a networked printer: sure, add it here, jini propagates it" - bonjour is still borrowing concepts like that
jbosmansi want to say, isn't bonjour an apple thing?
jbosmansis or was
dreamrealit is, yes
jbosmansor not at all
dreamrealeven MS has similar concepts, but JINI was ahead of all of them and better
jbosmansit's like OS/2 allover again
jbosmans:P
jbosmansit was way ahead in its time ^
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dreamrealYeah, OS/2 was another engineering failure. Lots of those around. Like mongodb!
jbosmansnever used mongo :P
dreamreal~ping
javabotThe machine that 'kills fascists' has arrived.
dreamrealnow you have.
dreamrealinteresting ping response.
jbosmanssign of the times?
jbosmans:)
dreamrealYeah, but apparently there's a lot of misunderstanding about what a fascist is: people use it these days as "someone I don't like politically" and that's ... not quite right.
dreamrealI despise fascists but know very few of them, but I know a lot of people who're being CALLED fascist.
dreamrealSure. And by that definition, everyone's partially fascist; it's all a matter of degree. Everyone can point to almost every point and say "see? everyone is fascist" but if everyone is fascist, is anyone? Does the term mean anything at all?
dreamrealI have a flag in front of my yard - it's an AMERICAN flag! Am I a fascist?
GreenResponsethey’re basically illiberal: undemocratic and chauvinist, fascism is a part boom-bust capitalism cycle
dreamrealYet I can point to a lot of these 14 points and say "nope, I'm a vocal opponent of this, of that, of the other, and I support this when fascists aren't supposed to do that, and..."
dreamrealsure. And the only people who think I'm not a liberal, for example, are the far left who think I'm mostly not liberal ENOUGH.
dreamrealSo I'm not happy with the claims of fascism everywhere, because it makes the REAL fascists muted, and I resent hat.
jbosmansthose points are meant to be combined i think
dreamrealSure. Do you think everyone who uses the term knows that?
DoofusCanadensisi kinda like hat. keeps my hair out of my eyes
dreamrealDoofusCanadensis: haha
jbosmansumberto eco knows what he's talking about
dreamrealjbosmans: I mean, there IS a tipping point, but at some point people overfit and that's a problem.
jbosmansof course
jbosmansi agree ^
dreamrealAnd i think that overfitting happens A LOT and thus, like the term "nazi," the word 'fascist' should be disincentivized so it loses none of its actual power.
jbosmansjust wanted to say, fascism isn't "something vague" per se
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dreamrealI don't find "grammar pedant" anywhere near as effective as "grammar nazi" but I refuse to water down "nazi" with something as simple as grammar
jbosmansgrammar nazi is funny tho :D
jbosmansin flemish, it's more like "spelling nazi" i guess
dreamrealjbosmans: I don't think it's VAGUE anyway: it has a definition, fascism is typically (or, more concessionally, RAPIDLY) toxic.
dreamrealI'm not sure of a lot of benevolent fascist states, even in the short term, although I'm sure FDR or Abraham Lincoln would disagree
jbosmansdreamreal, yes, agree
dreamreal"We're just going to do these things in the SHORT term, right?" and that SORT of worked out, maybe, if you squint? But then you have italy, and a few other notables...
dreamrealAnyway, it's late, my wife made dinner, as scintillating as you dopes are, she wins
jbosmansi think i misunderstand the link between fascism and Lincoln/FDR
jbosmansrightly so :)
jbosmanshave a good evening !
dreamrealjbosmans: both of them pretty much took over a LOT of the social engine and financial engines to make things limp along better for a correction
dreamrealthere were elements where they struggled to fit the definition (particularly election fraud and, for lincoln, cronyism, also intellectualism wasn't scorned) but both pretty much fit everything else
dreamrealthey'd hit 70% of the definition pretty easily, especially if you weren't predisposed to judging them positively
jbosmanshmmmm first time i heard that but it's interesting
dreamrealWell, you're not American, yeah?
jbosmanswell i saw the ken burns docs
jbosmans*docu's
jbosmanspotentially a bit positive :)
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dreamrealYeah. Well, both of them pretty much said "I'm going to suspend core aspects of the union to preserve it," and they certainly went through on it, and the question is whether the ends were worth the means: most americans say yes (including me: Lincoln's my #2 president, with washington being an easy #1) but enjoying the fruits of their labors isn't the same as saying they didn't fit the definitions
dreamrealplato's philosopher-kings were kings because they weren't beholden to slavish compliance to common morality: his concept was that a king who was constrained wouldn't be much of a king. We got to see that with Carter: a fine man, a craptastic president
jbosmansthat totally doesn't cover "fascist" though? I mean, look at the list (for whatever any list is worth)
dreamrealWell, dinner awaits, but I could show you where they fit MANY of those qualifications, line by line
jbosmanswas good talking ! Enjoy your dinner, to be continued :P
dreamrealprobably 10 of 14 for both of them, with little effort. 70% fascist isn't fascist, maybe?
dreamrealhave a good one, all
jbosmansyeah it's an exercise in interpreting
jbosmansnn dreamreal !
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jbosmanshaving finished spring boot 3.5.7 to 4.0.3, the uber jar shrank from 119mb to 117mb, whii