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00:05 * jreicher joined #nevet
00:54 Chronos dreamreal: And Star Trader would be played via some system to which nevet is connected?
00:55 Chronos Such as IRC?
00:55 Chronos dreamreal: I would say any politician that votes in favor of the Ten Commandments being displayed at public schools through force of law qualifies as "Christian Nationalist".
01:20 jreicher Maybe they just really liked the movie
01:27 * jreicher joined #nevet
01:35 Chronos It's a great movie :)
03:19 dreamreal Chronos: re: star trader, yeah
03:19 dreamreal any system nevet is connected to would support it
03:19 dreamreal as far as the ten commandments... they're not CHRISTIAN
03:20 dreamreal so I'm not sure how they represent CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM as much as a common set of mores
03:23 dreamreal I'd say rigid adherence to EVERY ONE of the ten commandments would violate separation of church and state, but that doesn't mean they can't be posted, even by law, although *I* wouldn't advocate for such a law myself. And posting them isn't the same as enforcing them: they're really a signal saying "look, this is representative of our common mores, we don't murder, we don't steal, we don't lie, we
03:23 dreamreal value THESE things, whatever they might mean to you"
03:24 dreamreal and that's sort of how you build a society, especially from such disparate cultural backgrounds: "We're American, which means we more or less agree on these ideals, although an individual can waver in how much they care about each one"
03:37 jreicher Certainly adultery isn't what it used to be.
03:37 dreamreal "darn."
03:38 dreamreal I mean, I find adultery to be awful: 0/5 stars, would not participate myself.
03:38 dreamreal but the ten commandments predate christianity by AT LEAST 800 years, probably closer to 1500
03:39 dreamreal not sure how they're christian nationalism in any way
03:41 jreicher I reckon a lot of it goes back to Hammurabi too
03:42 Chronos dreamreal: The Ten Commandments are indeed Christian, just not exclusively Christian.
03:44 Chronos And I'd be appreciative if you pointed out the non-Christians in Congress pushing for laws to require the Ten Commandments being displayed in public places.
04:35 dreamreal Chronos: I don't even know of CHRISTIANS in congress pushing for those laws! Those things are state level, not national.
04:35 dreamreal And there's nothing in the constitution preventing a STATE legislature from doing it.
04:36 dreamreal And the ten commandments being used by christians doesn't really mean much: Islam accepts them in very nearly the same fashion, since they're generally a set of mores for acceptable human societal behavior
04:40 dreamreal A culture that shrugs at theft, at murder, at adultery, at perjury, etc. isn't a culture that is going to be smiled upon by the future. Ask all of the Aztecs' admirers about that. Or the Kenanim; yjere
04:40 dreamreal there's a reason we mention sacrificing children to Moloch as a bit of a negative.
04:42 dreamreal Now, I know that there're different cultural drivers at play: maybe you're going "hey, throwing children into a volcano is just the way the kenanim were, it's just their culture; and the Aztecs torturing children so their tears and pain hopefully create better rain the next season, well, you know, it's FINE" but *I* can't do the same
04:43 dreamreal The Spaniards were bastards, as were the English when they halted the sacrifice of widows on their husbands' pyres, but ... give me the bastards in these cases.
04:45 dreamreal (Spain vs the Aztecs; the English in India, for specifics.)
04:45 dreamreal I don't see Cortez as a hero, and the Brits laid a lot of groundwork for recrimination in India as well, but even so: better than the alternatives
04:48 dreamreal In case you're wondering: no, I'm not a subscriber to the "noble savage" mythos. There's no nobility in savagery; just savagery. There are a few blessed cultures with no inherent violence, I'm sure, but they're hard to find because such leanings tend to convert their people into victims. Force majeure wins when reason fails.
04:54 dreamreal (Also worth noting: my heritage is shared. I'm Jewish, and that's my dominant mother culture... but I'm also a Native American. I've actually been invited to join the Metis tribe, but I refused, because I can't assert Metis beliefs honestly... but I could petition the Cherokee just as well. I have the genetic markers for it and everything, although the paperwork was abandoned three generations ago
04:54 dreamreal because it was a stigma at the time.)
04:56 dreamreal So I'm apparently SUPPOSED TO BE one of those "noble savages" but the truth is, the ancient Israelites were as brutal as they needed to be to survive, as were the Cherokee. The noble savage concept is a myth told by people trying to ignore the truth.
04:57 dreamreal Ask the amalekim how kind the Israelites were; oh, you can't. They're all dead. And apparently should be, based on what we can tell from their remains. And ask those whom the cherokee scalped on a regular basis how noble the tribes were. Oh, wait.
12:01 blue dreamreal: the noble savages is in itself a racist concept and fetishisation. racist in that that it means it's okay to do great evil if you're only an indian/african (you can't expect to partake of a better moral system), and fetishisation in the sense that everything these guys do is great, mostly a byproduct of the selfhate too people in the west have for their culture
12:03 dreamreal Find an incompatibility in what you just said and what *I* said, my friend. :D We only differ in how we express things. I express them well, you're ... you.
12:04 blue ya, but also you don't espouse a western chauvinism and I do. I honestly believe the west are superior to others, I don't believe in 'every culture is great'
12:05 dreamreal Oh, but you're wrong: I just don't pretend my chauvinism (it's eastern, not western, we're Jews, damn it!) is some Grand Mission of the Universe.
12:05 blue why should we? I don't need to assert a superiority that's inherent
12:06 dreamreal Exactly.
12:07 dreamreal (Judaism is eastern, not western: western philosophy sees the world as mechanical. Eastern sees it as organic. That's reductive, but accurate, IMO.)
12:07 blue well yeah, I also don't believe in turning the other cheek
12:07 blue that's some christian nonsense right there
12:08 blue you get hit on one cheek, you hit back so hard the other dude has a painful reminder on HIS cheek for the next time
12:09 dreamreal "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," saith the Lord, rather famously in... wait, why does my Tanach have that in Devarim
12:09 blue the real problem with christianity is that it doesn't map the human condition well at all
12:10 blue it's got great SEO, but no substance
12:10 dreamreal Sure, it's definitely aspirational at its heart and mode
12:11 blue the reason you're saying Judaism is eastern is already an abstraction. Judaism is organic because LIFE is organic
12:12 blue it's meant to deal with actual reallife concerns... although it does get into real excruciating details sometimes
12:12 dreamreal Which is why I'm an aspirant to eastern philosophy. I think life is NOT mechanical. Physics is, sure, fine, whatever. Math, woo. But life is not mechanical, and thus seeing it as organic is natural and "right."
12:13 blue you know the thing with a piece of ham falling into a pot?
12:13 blue it depends on the SIZE!
12:13 blue there's actually a whole chapter about it iirc in the talmud
12:13 dreamreal "Whew, good thing that ham was bacon-shaped and, well, bacon-flavored."
12:13 blue but you may actually eat it if it's deemed insignificant enough
12:14 dreamreal I personally find that discussion pilpul - it's worth having the discussion, but the decision is concession to real life and is, well, pilpul.
12:15 blue well yeah, I find it mostly illustrative. I don't think it's anyway often a reallife concern, maybe abroad but not in eretz israel
12:15 dreamreal (for the non-jews here: pilpul is "foolish talk," straining through bits of trash to find the bit that's least trash but still trash, etc. Sophistry.)
12:16 blue sophistry is a good term for it indeed
12:16 dreamreal It's useful sophistry, in that it presents a mechanism for THINKING ABOUT things, but...
12:17 blue there's an old joke in israel that goes something like this. the state passed a law that forbids people from farming pigs on the land. its earth is holy and so on. so now they're growing them on platforms
12:17 dreamreal heh. #winning :D ("oh wait, they're still pigs.")
12:21 blue oh, I have another one. dreamreal might have heard it, but I'm unsure anyone *else* here did, it's worth telling. a jew is stranded on a desert island for a couple of years. when he's finally rescued, they find he's built two synagogues on the island. astounded, they ask him: "you're just one man, what do you need *two* synagogues for?" he points at the first one, "*this* is the one I pray in", then points at
12:21 blue the second one, "this one, I'll *never* set my foot in"
12:23 dreamreal I've heard variants of that, yes, and it's definitely funny. :D There's another one about orthodoxy, but I've always heard it used with christian denominations
12:24 dreamreal A man comes upon another man on a bridge, sitting on the side, about to throw himself off... you know, I'm never going to be able to type this out well
12:24 blue hahahaha
12:25 dreamreal https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23561876
12:25 nevet I'm reminded of the classic Emo Phillips joke: > Once I saw this guy on a bridge... | Hacker News
12:28 blue that's a good one!
12:28 dreamreal definitely no analogs THERE in Judaism, whew!
12:28 * dreamreal sneers in frum
12:29 * blue looks at hasidim
12:33 dreamreal I have a distinct disdain for orthodox judaism - I have had great conversations with specific orthodox jews, but most of them weaponize judaism in a way I find repellent. It's like they see how they see the world as "right" instead of "valuable."
12:34 blue ya, it's nearly a cult
12:35 blue it depends though. overseas they tend to be better than in israel. ben shapiro I like, but most orthodox jews in israel can be insufferable
12:35 blue they're also pretty lazy in israel, for some reason I never get
12:36 dreamreal I find Shapiro mostly insufferable too, but eh, horses for courses :D The haredim ... ew
12:37 blue the haredim is the main problem. they don't wanna work, nor go to the army. it's almost like they're using the torah as an excuse to do nothing
12:38 dreamreal Shapiro's a good talker, and he's pretty thorough, but he tends to approach discussion from a position of "I'm right" too. To his credit, he accepts when he's shown otherwise and does so quite well (he'll promote engagements where he *lost* with as much vigor or more than ones in which he *won*) but it's still a wonky approach for me.
12:38 dreamreal The haredim see torah as being more valuable than living the torah, it seems to me.
12:38 blue ya
12:41 dreamreal "I saw a wounded man in desperate need but it was shabbat and he was four steps too far away. I had my phone but the sun was in the wrong position; waiting fifteen minutes was inconvenient, so I left. Surely Hashem would send someone else closer to him, maybe a goy."
12:41 blue HA!
12:41 blue btw this would fall under pikuah nefesh
12:41 blue so I doubt this really maps
12:42 dreamreal ONLY if you could accurately measure the "desperate need!" What if he was wounded but not THAT badly...
12:42 blue pikuah nefesh generall trumps shabbat
12:42 blue generally*
12:42 blue well in doubt, for the pikuah nefesh I'd say
12:42 dreamreal But you're not haredi!
12:42 blue yes hence cult
12:43 dreamreal And yes, I'd be horrified at that reasoning, and so would most, I'd hope
12:43 blue if they have a different interpretation, they're wrong: pikuah nefesh is a joker card. saving life is more important than anything else, because without life nothing else is possible
12:43 dreamreal but I can TOTALLY see many of the orthodox trying to reason their way out of succor
12:44 dreamreal yes: but what if "desperate need" is a broken arm, not actually LIFE-threatening, so pikuach nefesh might not apply, and CHECKING involves breaking shabbat...
12:45 blue well, you don't know until you've checked? and anyway, this would be weird: even if it's just a broken arm, the situation could get worse, and if not dealth with, the person could lose his arm
12:45 blue dealt*
12:45 dreamreal for the non-jews: pikuach nefesh is "saving a life" - no jewish law supercedes life, apart from sexual impropriety and a few others
12:45 dreamreal generally, you break the fucking laws if a life is involved, full stop
12:45 blue ya
12:46 blue it is generally tied to the value of life in judaism. even one life is considered equivalent to the entire world
12:46 dreamreal and I think the exceptions make sense: "have an affair, or die!" is... an odd problem to endure
12:46 blue heh
12:50 dreamreal idolatry is even arguable (the exceptions to pikuach nefesh are: sexual immorality, idolatry, and murder). Avodah zarah (idolatry) is pretty clear, but there ARE exceptions and I bet few rabbis would go too far in attacking idolatry undertaken to preserve one's life: "profane God or we're cutting your throat" is something admirable - Akiva died for this - but I think redemption is as valuable as
12:50 dreamreal preservation.
12:51 dreamreal murder has exceptions, too; capital interdiction is a permittable thing although not a desirable one, as is self-defense, obviously.
12:51 dreamreal I'm unaware of any sexual exceptions, but I have no idea why there WOULD be, although I suppose the redemption thing could play here too if you squinted a lot.
13:36 Chronos dreamreal: The Ten Commandments aren't just a set of societal moral guidelines. They're clearly religious in nature, and in fact, specific to a particular God (the Abrahamic one).
13:37 dreamreal Chronos: there are religious aspects to them, yes
13:37 Chronos The Ten Commandments has no place in any public building.
13:37 dreamreal Do common mores at all?
13:38 Chronos Schools can and do post lots of lists, including moral guidelines. They're fine, as long as they're not religious in nature.
13:38 dreamreal (more clearly: does an expression of common mores have a place in public building?)
13:38 dreamreal But religion is inextricable from human history
13:38 Chronos Irrelevant.
13:38 dreamreal so what you're advocating for is... what, the jacobins' response?
13:39 Chronos I'm not sure what that is.
13:39 dreamreal We might think of it as "the terror."
13:39 dreamreal Actually, no. We might capitalize it. "The Terror."
13:40 Chronos If you have a link that describes it, I'll take a look.
13:41 Chronos I have a zero tolerance policy for politicians attempting to mix their pet religions into government.
13:41 dreamreal The French Revolution? Lots of heads a-rolling, let them eat cake, resulting in the heads that MASTERMINDED said revolution rolling and rotting on the same charnel houses where they condemned the royals?
13:41 dreamreal You know, THE TERROR? I feel lost here, like I'm having someone illustrate VERY clearly the whole Santayana thing about those who forget history being doomed to repeat it
13:42 dreamreal The Jacobins SYSTEMATICALLY rebuilt reason and inculcated it into "french life." No religion. At all. "Imagine" made real. And what it resulted in was a years-long shower of blood, blood, blood so much blood that it made the holocaust unimaginable until we were confronted with actual proof of it.
13:43 Chronos Are you saying that secularism inevitably leads to disaster, and that religion is a requirement to avoid that outcome?
13:45 dreamreal No. I'm saying that there's momentum, and religion HAS BEEN part of it, and that momentum is part of the mechanism that got us here, and pretending it's not a core aspect of our culture, regardless of our personal belief in the religious conceits, is... misled.
13:46 dreamreal I might as well, as an observant Jew, decide to be UTTERLY ignorant of Christian cultural norms, just because *I* am not a Christian, and therefore it's irrelevant, right? Except that's a stupid way to live and I don't like to be stupid.
13:46 Chronos I recognize that religion has played a role in many cultures, including in the United States. I'm failing to see how that changes anything, though.
13:47 dreamreal Okay, what forms a working society, in your mind?
13:47 * Chronos chuckles.
13:47 dreamreal Serious question
13:47 Chronos Are you saying religion is required to form a working society?
13:48 dreamreal No. I asked what makes a society function. I know what *I* think; I want to know what YOU think.
13:48 Chronos It's probably something I'd want to think about for a while, before I answered. Possibly hours, possibly months.
13:49 dreamreal That's fair.
13:49 dreamreal I can tell you what I think, if you like, but that's up to you.
13:49 Chronos Sure! I like these kinds of discussions. As long as you don't mind them happening in your channel.
13:50 dreamreal Okay: *I* think, in short, that a functioning society is one that has *generally* common moral structures, and when those common moral structures are generative rather than destructive.
13:51 dreamreal Note the lack of "common religion" or anything like that. A society functions when its members row in the same general direction such that everyone wants the boat to go THATAWAY.
13:52 dreamreal A destructive common moral system isn't hard to imagine: we've certainly had a few even in recent memory. The assyrians stick out to ME but they're not unique, unfortunately.
13:54 dreamreal (The assyrians were... a lot. They were so bad that when the babylonians and the medes - themselves the "bad guys" of their time - banded together and wiped ninwah so far off the map that it was thought of as an IMAGINARY CITY until it was discovered recently - the babylonians and the medes were the HEROES. We'd probably lump the Nazis and the Assyrians together, although we know a lot less about
13:54 dreamreal whether the Assyrian trains ran on time.)
13:54 Chronos So far, so good. How does this apply to politicians trying to use the government to push their pet religions?
13:56 dreamreal The ten commandments don't PUSH THEIR PET RELIGIONS. The Ten Commandments mention Jesus exactly.. hold on, let me count... errr... carry the... oh wait, they don't. If they're Christians, the decalogue does nothing to promote THEIR RELIGION and everything to push abrahamic mores, which are... hold on, doing more math, divide by... oh yeah, generally the common moral underpinnings of western civ,
13:56 dreamreal even beyond the greek influence.
13:57 Chronos Do you deny that the Ten Commandments are referring to a particular God?
13:57 dreamreal Not in the slightest.
13:58 dreamreal Do you say that one can't follow the general moral concepts in the ten commandments WITHOUT obeisance to that particular God?
13:58 Chronos Good. Then we agree they have no place in public places through force of law. :)
13:58 dreamreal No, we don't, because if you say that, you've just eradicated most of our history.
13:59 Chronos Displaying 5-10 (although I'm on the fence about #5) is reasonable, but if your society "needs" those displayed, I think your society might have bigger problems.
13:59 dreamreal What you've said is, BTW, pretty much a near-exact quote from Robespierre. The architect of the Terror I mentioned.
13:59 dreamreal Looking at our society, I'd say we kinda need it, yes, but "thou shalt not murder" needs to have a reason.
14:00 Chronos I'm not sure what you mean by "eradicated our history." Nobody is saying schools shouldn't continue to teach history.
14:00 dreamreal You may not agree with the reason being "because God said so," and that's fine - even Judaism is fine with you disagreeing with the sentiment.
14:01 dreamreal But the sentiment is clear: there are good things to do and bad things to do. This sentiment has force. THAT's the decalogue and what it implies. Taking it literally is... interesting, because in human history FEW, relatively speaking, have done that.
14:01 Chronos Creating a moral framework without the need for a God or Gods is a very deep philosophical hole. I personally think moral philosophers have succeeded more than once in establishing "murder = bad" without the need to invoke mysticism.
14:02 dreamreal Sure. You don't NEED mysticism. But have you read those philosophers?
14:02 Chronos I have not. My experience has been more practical in nature.
14:02 dreamreal Clearly, and that's respectable, but with ALL respect, I'd suggest holding off on the sentiment, made publicly. :D
14:03 * Chronos chuckles. :)
14:03 blue Chronos: Sam Harris tried... and.. kinda failed. The best argument I've seen from atheists is: "this has worked well in the past, let's keep it". The problem with that is, it's *not* an argument. *Many* things have worked well for much longer: for example, slavery.
14:03 Chronos I should mention that I'm not an atheist. I'm not a theist either.
14:03 dreamreal It doesn't matter. I don't care what you believe in or don't.
14:03 blue There is no argument against slavery there is no religious, or at least dogmatic in nature.
14:04 blue that is not religious*
14:04 Chronos I *tend* to lean toward "God must exist," because I can't fathom how the universe can exist without what amounts to magic.
14:04 dreamreal Chronos: For what it's worth, to be clear: I HAVE read those philosophers. They ask QUITE A BIT of their readers, and ... well, as blue mentioned, they kinda fail. It all comes down to "please don't murder, because I don't really want to be murdered." And that's... not exactly compelling, taken in situ.
14:04 Chronos dreamreal: I just thought it might help you understand my position better if you knew that I don't self identify as theist or atheist. More like, permanently unsure. Which, honestly, isn't a great place to be. It's very frustrating.
14:05 dreamreal I appreciate that, and it's fine. I do not disapprove.
14:05 Chronos I wish I had the confidence of religious people or the confidence of atheists. It would make my inner life so much easier.
14:05 blue I'm also generally irreligious, but I reject the label atheist strongly. I subscribe to the Einsteinian notion of religion: the fact the universe's laws are parseable to us can (or rather: should) be considered a miracle.
14:05 dreamreal Chronos: me too, honestly. I don't trust the utterly confident.
14:06 Chronos dreamreal: Perhaps the best argument for things like "murder is bad" is because history has demonstrated that those societies without those rules, well, suck compared to the alternative.
14:06 dreamreal Chronos: see? You're doing what blue does to me all the time! He's like "dreamreal, you're wrong! SO WRONG! Now let me take two hours to end up where you started in this conversation, almost like you were right the whole damn time and I'm not an idiot."
14:07 blue This *is* a leap of faith that people who are strongly science-oriented often forget: there is no particular *reason* we have the ability to understand and glimpse into (parts of) the universe.
14:07 dreamreal Hobbes.
14:07 Chronos (I tend to think strong atheism is at least as foolish as blind faith in a religion.)
14:07 dreamreal Chronos: yep.
14:08 Chronos dreamreal: Think of it as you doing a public service. ;)
14:08 Chronos blue: I agree.
14:08 dreamreal It's exhausting, though.
14:09 dreamreal You morons have NO IDEA how tiring it is to be so much more ingelitent than you is.
14:09 blue dreamreal: shouldn't you be celebrating it? You get people to steelman your nonsensical notions!
14:09 Chronos lol! :)
14:10 Chronos Unfortunately, most of the evil I've personally experienced, or saw friends/relatives experience, has come at the hands of the religious.
14:10 dreamreal blue: the problem is that I know the conclusion ahead of time and I have to step through it over and over again while people realize that I actually have a reason for the positions I hold. And I HAVE to walk through it, because I'm not perfect and sometimes I learn, too, and revise my own positions, so I can't just do like, uh, what SOME PEOPLE do and say "look, I'm right, you're wrong, shut up."
14:10 dreamreal Chronos: as Jews, blue and I can easily concur :D
14:11 blue Ya, though evil is in the nature of humans, not necessarily in the making of religions.
14:12 dreamreal religion is just a convenient hammer. Sometimes it's a rudder, but less often than it is blamed for.
14:12 blue Religions have neither been the prerequisite for evil nor a hindrance of it.
14:12 Chronos dreamreal: Indeed. One of the reasons I'm against politicians trying to introduce religion into government through force of law is because I recognize groups like Jews are at nontrivial risk if they succeed.
14:12 Chronos If you think the religious right won't come for you eventually, I think you're mistaken.
14:12 dreamreal See, my problem is with THE POLITICIANS and not THE RELIGION.
14:13 dreamreal I think everyone is going to come for me eventually. Doesn't matter which direction on the compass they come from. I know a good bit of my own history.
14:14 Chronos Same here, but to a much lesser degree.
14:14 dreamreal I fear the religious right less than I fear the irreligious left, honestly: postmodernism is more corrosive that utter belief.
14:14 Chronos If it comes to it, I can fake being religious (converted). Jews would have a much, *much* more difficult time avoiding being discriminated against.
14:15 Chronos dreamreal: I fear them both pretty equally, which is why I self identify as a moderate.
14:15 dreamreal Nobody knows what a jew is, apart from being a potential victim.
14:15 dreamreal I fear those who would destroy meaning a LOT more than those with whom I disagree.
14:15 Chronos Destroy meaning?
14:15 dreamreal I can argue with those with whom I disagree; thsoe who can't accept what existence is, or what words mean... how do you talk to them at all?
14:16 dreamreal when someone says "this is a bit of knowledge" and it's wrong, I can say "it is wrong, here is truth, here is why." And maybe they'll be convinced, maybe not, but we're speaking together.
14:16 dreamreal When someone says "nothing is knowable, even that statement is unknowable"... how do you REACH THEM?
14:16 Chronos dreamreal: In my experience, it's best not to talk to them at all. I've been universally unsuccessful trying to talk extreme-right people into sense. I've also been universally unsuccessful trying to talk extreme-left people into sense.
14:17 Chronos dreamreal: Oh, yeah, that's a dumb stance for them to take. You have to build from somewhere reasonable, or you can't build at all.
14:17 dreamreal Sure. yet we live in the same world. I am an actual leftist, a real one. I can't say "oh, you're one of THOSE loons, take your place with the potted plants in my sensorium."
14:18 Chronos I'm a loon, but I think recognizing that I'm a loon is advantageous. ;)
14:18 dreamreal I agree, you're a loon.
14:18 Chronos hahahaha
14:18 Chronos yep. That's what everyone tells me...
14:19 dreamreal Now you can say that *I* agree with you, so it's obviously correct because I WILL take the time to walk through the reasoning until everyone who tells me I'm utterly incorrect ends up trying to convince me of the position I had when the discussion STARTED.
14:19 Chronos Speaking of Jews (if that's okay), my best friend for the last 30 years is a Jew. Even after decades of talking to him, I can't wrap my head around why so many people seem to hate Jews.
14:20 dreamreal Right? We're awesome! ... but hatred tends to focus on group perception. That merkavah guy again: https://merkavah.substack.com/p/one-of-the-good-ones
14:20 Chronos dreamreal: Alas — I still take an uncompromising stance against politicians introducing religion into public spaces through rule of law.
14:21 dreamreal Chronos: *shrug* not my monkey. Do as you will such that it works for you. My main opposition to that is the "uncompromising" aspect: I do not trust true believers, even when they believe what I do.
14:22 dreamreal I even have a song about it!
14:23 dreamreal https://dreamreal1.bandcamp.com/track/true-believer
14:23 nevet True Believer, by Dream Real
14:24 * blue joined #nevet
14:25 Chronos dreamreal: Well, just be careful about who you support — if they continue their current trajectory, they can — and will — come for you eventually.
14:26 dreamreal again, jewish: 3500 years and more of awareness.
14:26 * Chronos nods.
14:26 Chronos I apologize. I shouldn't be telling you, of all people, this, as if it's some great insight.
14:27 dreamreal It's literally no problem. Better than not!
14:27 Chronos It's insulting to you and I need to talk more carefully.
14:27 Chronos OK, thanks. :)
14:27 dreamreal It's like what I was saying about christians trying to convert me - I'd rather they TRIED. It means they care.
14:27 Chronos (Reading that Israel/Gaza article now)
14:31 dreamreal that guy is VERY verbose
14:32 dreamreal not much of a surprise that I read him, eh
14:32 dreamreal "Give me words, please, more more precious words, words!!!!!"
14:36 Chronos Interesting article.
14:36 dreamreal and for the record: no, you don't need to talk to ME more carefully. I'd say the opposite. Take the gloves off, you freaking rat bastard.
14:36 Chronos There *is* another approach, though, one that I personally used: I tried to raise my daughter to be a better person than I am. Less prejudice.
14:37 dreamreal I did the same for my sons.
14:37 Chronos Because I *am* prejudiced.
14:37 dreamreal Sure. As am I. In my case, of course, my prejudice is deserved... (haha)
14:38 dreamreal But the desire to make the next generation better IS the point. We do what we can. If we do that, we've succeeded.
14:38 Chronos I haven't said it to many people, but I think quite a few immigrants are an objective harm to American society, and if I were in charge, I'd seriously consider not allowing immigration from some countries with cultures so deeply incompatible.
14:38 dreamreal Continual improvement is what we SHOULD be aiming for, not "perfection."
14:38 Chronos yep.
14:39 dreamreal And the thing about what you JUST SAID is why I think the decalogue is okay to publish everywhere: not as religious edict, but "here are the ground rules, and if you can't follow these basic things, maybe you DO NOT BELONG."
14:39 Chronos My Jewish friend never ceases to miss an opportunity for telling me I'm a racist and a monster for thinking we should perhaps put the brakes on immigration from some places.
14:39 dreamreal Jews are the worst. :D
14:40 Chronos dreamreal: 5-10 (or 6-10) and you have my agreement. 1-4 are a hard no.
14:40 Chronos He's pretty liberal... heh.
14:40 blue Chronos: your Jewish friend is what we generally call a "bad Jew"
14:40 dreamreal I'm very liberal, personally. But the thing is: 1-4 ... don't ... I mean, I get the response to them, but I think that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's just framing.
14:40 Chronos There's no end of people that want to come to the United States; I don't personally think it's evil to prefer those coming from more compatible cultures.
14:41 Chronos blue: hahahaha he would probably agree
14:41 Chronos dreamreal: I'm flummoxed why politicians can't come to some compromise on such a thing.
14:42 dreamreal I don't think it's evil to prefer those compatible immigrants at all. And from INCOMPATIBLE cultures? Bring 'em on! ... as long as you can find a way to become compatible. Come here and shriek "death to america?" You have that right... and you can fuck right on off, too.
14:42 dreamreal Go back to the place you ran from.
14:42 blue Chronos: let's start from the basics. There's no right to immigrate. All immigrants, regardless of status, are fully at the behest of their gracious hosts. Their status can (and should be) forfeit at any time, if they break the rules. For the illegal ones, that's a given since they've already broken the rules by entering illegally; for the legal ones, that should apply too if they commit a crime or go against
14:42 blue the conditions of their stay. Sounds reasonable?
14:42 Chronos blue: 100% reasonable.
14:43 blue From these basics, all immigration policy should flow. Any other position should be considered unreasonable, because it would suggest that immigration is a *right* that people possess.
14:43 * dreamreal settles back to watch this absurdity play out.
14:43 Chronos For example, as I think I've mentioned earlier in this channel, I'm both in favor of most of the current deportations, *and* aghast at the abominable behavior of ICE officers, the DHS, and the current administration, in terms of how it's being handled.
14:44 Chronos Stupidity all around. And since I lack the purity either side demands, they both hate me. yippee.
14:44 blue Chronos: So what I've described to you right now, is essentially the immigration policy of Australia.
14:44 dreamreal Purity sucks as a measure of people.
14:44 Chronos blue: Unfortunately, here in Minnesota, there are a disturbing number of people that think borders should be open, and that any borders at all are racist.
14:45 blue Chronos: Yes, and it's good to understand that those people are *crazy*. They need to be put in insane asylums, because they have completely lost hold of reality.
14:45 dreamreal Chronos: I think every immigrant should be allowed to stay, illegal or not, as long as they can find a citizen willing to shoulder their legal and financial burdens :D
14:46 dreamreal Karen wants Ahmed to be able to stay in America despite being a rapist in whatever shithole he came from? No worries, it's Karen's roof, and Karen's tax burden, and Karen goes to jail with him if he rapes again... even if it's her
14:46 dreamreal I bet that'd be an experiment that lasted DAYS
14:46 blue dreamreal: that's also, bar the illegals, the immigration policy of Australia: you can invite people (though mostly family -- but employers can invite employees), as long as they shoulder the financial burden incurred.
14:46 nevet dreamreal: that's also, bar the illegals, the immigration policy of Australia: you can invite people (though mostly family now has karma of -1.
14:47 blue I wouldn't necessarily have a problem extending that to illegals, because definitionally they would become 'legal' at that point -- though I suspect you wouldn't find nearly as many people willing to sponsor, as are vocal for illegal immiration.
14:47 nevet I wouldn't necessarily have a problem extending that to illegals, because definitionally they would become 'legal' at that point now has karma of -1.
14:48 dreamreal Well, the nice thing about that is if you're a nice enough person to convince someone to ACTUALLY sponsor you, that's probably okay. If you're such an awful person that you CAN'T, well, why would we want you around anyway? So maybe try being a nice person.
14:49 blue dreamreal: because those leftists are theoretically nice; as long as they don't need to pay a personal price, they will chant those stupidities.
14:49 dreamreal Of course, we just outlined a policy that would get Tucker Carlson uncitizened. What a loss that would be.
14:50 dreamreal blue: well, that's why I say let them get skin in the game themselves: Ahmed Therapist (get it? the... rapist) gets to stay.. under Karen's roof. With Karen. And her daughter.
14:50 blue Karen's not gonna do that. She doesn't really care about Ahmed. She cares about feeling well in her own body whilst sipping her almond matcha latte at Starbucks.
14:50 dreamreal Right, which is why sleeping under the same roof with ol' Ahmed fixes the situation.
14:51 dreamreal Virtue without cost isn't virtue.
14:52 blue dreamreal: Would you be surprised to hear that in Germany, the areas with the fewest immigration asylums are where the vote is highest for Greens and the Social-Democratic party?
14:53 dreamreal I would, actually, because I don't know the social structures in place. I don't know who the Greens are or what their policies are, etc., so I have no way to form those associations.
14:53 blue Bunch of NIMBYs.
14:54 blue Those two parties are more or less the equivalent of the Dems in the US.
14:54 dreamreal heh
14:54 blue It's hard to compare because European politics is different, but as a general abstraction, it holds.
14:55 * Chronos mumbles something about maybe Native Americans should be the ones making immigration decisions
15:00 dreamreal So I get to tell you guys what to do!
15:01 dreamreal Joseph Littlefeatherstein, that's me. Ecept the feather ain't so little, if you know what I mean.
15:04 blue Chronos: using a first-dibs framework to determine ownership can have unexpected consequences, though. If you say the natives should call the shots, does it mean the entirety of the land of Israel belongs to Jews?
15:04 * dreamreal watches Jordan have a cow.
15:05 blue It's after all, undisputed historically that Jews have owned most of the land, including parts eastern of the Jordan river and into Syria.
15:06 blue Mike Huckabee recently made that point, to the chagrin of many Arab nations, who can't face the truth.
15:16 Chronos blue: Point taken, heh
15:17 * Chronos wonders if, after WW2, East Germany should have been given to the Jews.
15:17 dreamreal no
15:17 Chronos dreamreal: Why not?
15:17 dreamreal Why? is a better question
15:17 blue typical jew, answers with a question
15:17 Chronos As part of reparations.
15:17 dreamreal I mean, what would it have helped? Germany was still WW2-era germany. You'd basically be handing my people their literal graveyard at that point.
15:18 dreamreal And in a place where they'd just been told VERY bluntly they didn't belong, among people who'd done the "you don't belong her"-ing
15:18 dreamreal Herzl actually suggested madagascar as a land for jews but no, no, someone else might want that, so no
15:18 Chronos Not a suggestion, just a shower thought flash :)
15:18 blue Uganda was also on the table.
15:18 dreamreal sure, it's just not been something that's been discussed a lot
15:19 blue Argentina, I think too?
15:19 dreamreal herzl had no specific longing for israel proper, he was willing to accept anywhere
15:19 blue Turns out nobody really wants les JOOS!
15:19 dreamreal the rest of the world: "not there, wherever it is"
15:19 Chronos dreamreal: So, why Kotlin for nevet?
15:19 dreamreal Chronos: kotlin's very expressive to write
15:19 dreamreal java would have been fine but I can write kotlin faster and it IS more expressive
15:19 dreamreal plus, I LIKE try and if being expressions and not statements
15:20 dreamreal I'm almost as unreasoned as blue in that :D
15:20 blue yeah, you only need to write like 100 lines to expess a simple concept.
15:20 Chronos dreamreal: Can you show an example or two of its extra expressiveness?
15:20 blue Great language.
15:20 Chronos blue: lol
15:20 dreamreal Chronos: var foo = try { bar() } catch(_:Exception) { baz() }
15:21 Chronos In my experience, a lot of developers, when lauding expressiveness, is actually lauding terseness, which is often harder to read, maintain, debug, and reasonable about.
15:21 Chronos s/is/are/
15:21 blue true, Chronos
15:21 Chronos s/reasonable/reason/
15:21 blue there's also not much wrong anymore with modern Java; dreamreal is just a hipster!
15:21 Chronos dreamreal: Blech.
15:22 Chronos What type is foo?! I hate it. ;)
15:22 dreamreal or: foo?.let { baz() } // run if foo is not null
15:22 Chronos (Type inference often drives me mad.)
15:22 dreamreal Chronos: var foo:FooType is just as valid :D
15:23 Chronos I like type inference if the type is obvious from some other part of the expression.
15:23 Chronos But I really hate "var foo = bar()".
15:23 Chronos (Personal preference.)
15:24 Chronos try being an expression looks kind of cool though.
15:24 Chronos Reminds me of ?:
15:25 blue When I see things like `@Column(nullable = false) val deleted: Boolean = false,`, I think this SO unnecessarily verbose. ideal: `deleted: p.boolean.default(false)` (non-nullable should be the default, anyway)
15:25 dreamreal Chronos: well, in this case, I DID just type it on the fly :D
15:25 dreamreal foo and bar and baz are metasyntax, they're intentionally unclear about meaning
15:25 blue that's what I mean with 100 lines to express a simple concept. it's all theatrics. that's also a java criticism, btw
15:25 dreamreal the main thing about kotlin I DON'T like is that it does NOT have ternaries
15:26 dreamreal blue: that annotation is don't different THINGS
15:26 dreamreal doing
15:26 blue my eyes need to scan like HALF the line before I even GET to the name of the column, which is the most important thing here and the basics
15:26 blue that's totally broken
15:26 dreamreal @column val deleted:boolean // same thing
15:26 blue that's still dumb
15:26 dreamreal "this is a column in the database" and "cannot be nullable"
15:27 dreamreal well, you're in luck, because you ACTUALLY don't need "@Column"
15:27 blue the example I gave you is the most express one
15:27 blue expessive*
15:27 dreamreal Sure. You wanna see the real entity?
15:27 blue doing an entire dance here juts because ONE thing isn't in the db is dumb
15:27 blue https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/blob/main/lib-irc/src/main/kotlin/com/enigmastation/streampack/irc/entity/IrcNetwork.kt
15:27 dreamreal @Entity class DatabaseThing { @Id UUID id; boolean deleted }
15:27 Chronos dreamreal: Go doesn't have ternaries either.
15:27 blue unfortunately he doesn't have access to it, dreamreal
15:27 blue so I quoted directly
15:28 dreamreal sure. So what about that? Most of the signal in entities is for *consistency*
15:28 dreamreal not *expressiveness*
15:28 blue you're repeating yourself across TEN lines because you have ONE exception. that's TERRIBLE ergonomics
15:29 dreamreal Well, strictly speaking, that's habit, not mandate
15:29 dreamreal and also represents cross-domain concerns
15:30 dreamreal the database not allowing nullables isn't the same as the LANGUAGE not allowing nullables
15:30 blue shrug, pilpul
15:30 dreamreal if anyone edits THE DATABASE they're not allowed to create bad data
15:30 dreamreal no, actual architecture
15:30 dreamreal database != consumers
15:30 dreamreal those lines tell the language things about the database
15:30 dreamreal they are not the same
15:30 blue exceptions, as in nullables, should not be the default
15:31 * dreamreal sighs
15:31 blue regardless if you lay it on the db or app level, a distinction without merit
15:31 dreamreal okay, noted, everything sucks
15:31 dreamreal move along, get stuff done
15:33 blue I find such things often extremely theoretically: if someone edits the database. if you have an app, you should *not* be editing the db directly, but using migrations. if you do, it's your own fault if bad things happen
15:33 blue theoretical*
15:33 dreamreal I understand that. I find that awfully cute, personally, but I get it.
15:34 dreamreal Chronos: have you tried hangman? :D Or looked at the star trader stuff
15:34 blue YAGNI. someone could also be dropping tables, so what? would kill the app as well. you've baked a category error into your code, congrats
15:35 dreamreal I'm sure once I hit year three in my development career, I'll be as wise as you :D
15:35 blue more like thirty!
15:35 dreamreal hangman
15:35 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
15:36 dreamreal everyone in-channel can play, BTW, it's tied to the context of the game
15:36 dreamreal if you want to play solo, DM the bot :D
15:36 dreamreal hangman a
15:36 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ a _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: a) -- 'a' is in the word!
15:41 blue dreamreal: seriously, tell me that's not easier to read AND better: https://dpaste.com/6DMCMUNN2
15:41 blue better, because I can extract common patterns into variables; like a boolean default false, or the date thing
15:42 dreamreal They're doing different things and in different ways
15:42 blue my code would be doing exactly the same thing
15:42 dreamreal ... in different ways. How does it reflect in the schema?
15:42 blue just with less theatrics and repetition, and much more expressiveness: reads naturally from left to right
15:42 * dreamreal shrugs. Sure. So what?
15:43 blue you could say so what about anything!
15:43 dreamreal Right?
15:43 dreamreal Which is why I don't say it!
15:43 dreamreal It's meaningless. You like yours. I have questions about scope, but so what?
15:43 blue what questions about scope
15:43 dreamreal I mean, I asked my MAIN question
15:44 dreamreal you have an object with a field: id. If you change the source file, who owns the data?
15:44 blue what's your MAIN question? this code would result in the SAME schema as your code
15:44 dreamreal How are those rules expressed in the database? Why is THIS file the owner of that schema?
15:44 dreamreal in my code, MOST of the entity is actually unnecessary, it's habit and hints for othere
15:44 dreamreal others
15:45 blue this code maps DIRECTLY to a DB table. if I change it, I'd run `primate db migrate` and I'm done
15:45 blue if I don't run, the incongruency will be detected and I will be informed I need to run a migration or change the code
15:45 dreamreal right. So this code is the system of record for that table. My code is not. C'est la vie. I *like* it that way - I don't want my app writing a schema.
15:45 dreamreal gotta run for a bit
15:46 blue I guess you like it that way, that's why you've written it. when but when I read @Entity and @Table, I will link this in my mind to the DB table, so it'll be effectively the same. this is a model of a table, as is my code
15:46 blue s/I guess/I get/
15:47 blue bbiab
16:29 dreamreal hangman r
16:29 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ a _ _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, r) -- No 'r'. 5 lives left.
16:29 dreamreal hangman s
16:29 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ a _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s) -- No 's'. 4 lives left.
16:29 dreamreal hangman t
16:29 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ a _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s, t) -- No 't'. 3 lives left.
16:29 dreamreal hangman l
16:29 nevet Hangman: _ _ l l _ a _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, l, r, s, t) -- 'l' is in the word!
16:29 dreamreal hangman n
16:29 nevet Hangman: _ _ l l _ a _ _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, l, n, r, s, t) -- No 'n'. 2 lives left.
16:29 dreamreal hangman e
16:29 nevet Hangman: _ _ l l _ a _ _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, e, l, n, r, s, t) -- No 'e'. 1 lives left.
16:30 dreamreal uh oh
16:30 dreamreal hangman h
16:30 nevet No lives left! The word was 'pullback'. Use 'hangman' to start over.
16:35 blue hangman
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
16:35 blue hangman e
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (5/6 lives, guessed: e) -- No 'e'. 5 lives left.
16:35 blue hangman i
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: e, i) -- No 'i'. 4 lives left.
16:35 blue hangman a
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ a _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i) -- 'a' is in the word!
16:35 blue hangman o
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ o _ _ a _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, o) -- 'o' is in the word!
16:35 blue hangman u
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ o _ _ a _ _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, o, u) -- No 'u'. 3 lives left.
16:35 blue hangman c
16:35 nevet Hangman: _ o _ _ a _ c _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, c, e, i, o, u) -- 'c' is in the word!
16:36 blue hangman k
16:36 nevet Hangman: _ o _ _ a _ c _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, c, e, i, k, o, u) -- No 'k'. 2 lives left.
16:36 blue hangman s
16:36 nevet Hangman: _ o _ _ a _ c _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, c, e, i, k, o, s, u) -- No 's'. 1 lives left.
16:36 dreamreal I'm betting a t
16:36 blue hangman t
16:36 nevet Hangman: _ o t _ a t c _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, c, e, i, k, o, s, t, u) -- 't' is in the word!
16:36 dreamreal I bet potlatch
16:36 dreamreal (I have not looked)
16:37 blue hangman p
16:37 nevet Hangman: p o t _ a t c _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, c, e, i, k, o, p, s, t, u) -- 'p' is in the word!
16:37 blue hangman l
16:37 nevet Hangman: p o t l a t c _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, c, e, i, k, l, o, p, s, t, u) -- 'l' is in the word!
16:37 blue hangman h
16:37 nevet You got it! The word was 'potlatch'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
16:37 dreamreal haha
16:37 blue wth is potlatch
16:38 dreamreal gift-giving feast apparently
16:38 dreamreal define potlatch
16:38 nevet define potlatch: potlatch (noun): A ceremony amongst certain indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest in which gifts are bestowed upon guests and personal property is destroyed in a show of generosity and wealth.
16:38 blue hangman
16:38 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
16:38 blue hangman e
16:38 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ e (6/6 lives, guessed: e) -- 'e' is in the word!
16:38 blue hangman t
16:38 nevet Hangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ e (5/6 lives, guessed: e, t) -- No 't'. 5 lives left.
16:38 blue hangman a
16:38 nevet Hangman: _ _ a _ _ a _ e (5/6 lives, guessed: a, e, t) -- 'a' is in the word!
16:39 blue hangman o
16:39 nevet Hangman: _ _ a _ _ a _ e (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, o, t) -- No 'o'. 4 lives left.
16:39 blue hangman i
16:39 nevet Hangman: _ _ a _ _ a _ e (3/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, o, t) -- No 'i'. 3 lives left.
16:39 dreamreal Oh, use an alef, let's see what it does
16:39 blue hangman n
16:39 nevet Hangman: _ _ a _ _ a _ e (2/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, o, t) -- No 'n'. 2 lives left.
16:39 blue hangman א
16:39 nevet Hangman: _ _ a _ _ a _ e (1/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, o, t, א) -- No 'א'. 1 lives left.
16:39 blue you bastard
16:39 dreamreal NICE, bug!
16:39 blue you just cost me a life
16:39 dreamreal well, I could give you what the actual word is
16:40 dreamreal but now I have a bug to fix, which is good
16:40 blue hangman r
16:40 nevet No lives left! The word was 'clambake'. Use 'hangman' to start over.
16:40 blue JESUS
16:40 dreamreal define clambake
16:40 nevet define clambake: clambake (noun): An informal beach party in which food, usually seafood, is cooked in a pit dug in the sand, filled with hot coals.
16:40 dreamreal hahaha
16:40 blue it's all words I DO NOT KNOW
16:40 dreamreal man, nevet's INTO food ceremonies today
16:40 dreamreal the words are picked at random from I think 400
16:40 dreamreal I want to have it choose from aspell-dict, etc
16:40 blue just have it choose from AI
16:41 blue bbiab
16:41 dreamreal nah, expensive
17:14 * PyR3X joined #nevet
18:07 * dmlloyd joined #nevet
19:00 blue dreamreal: can nevet map discord reactions to irc messages?
19:00 dreamreal Unfortunately, no
19:00 blue why not
19:00 dreamreal discord doesn't differentiate actions
19:01 dreamreal a discord action is just a message in italics
19:01 dreamreal I checked
19:01 blue so I just liked something phaleth said on the primate irc channel, on discord
19:01 dreamreal yes
19:01 dreamreal oh, THOSE
19:01 dreamreal those are different
19:01 blue shouldn't it show <discord:blue> :thumbsup: or something?
19:02 dreamreal um
19:02 dreamreal Okay, so that's ACTUALLY doable, but I don't know how it would map, because you can respond to messages long past their posting date
19:03 blue that's ok: you can also remove reactions, which isn't mappable. in ircv3 at least could attach it to a message: but I think just writing a message for now should be ok, for most cases
19:03 dreamreal file an issue, please, so I can track it
19:03 blue k
19:10 blue dreamreal: https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/95
19:10 blue this good?
19:10 blue so to be candid here, I usually form my thoughts in a loose manner and then have chatgpt box it into shape, spares me a lot of time whilst writing issues
19:18 dreamreal i have no issue with that process AT ALL
19:18 dreamreal and that seems clear enough, I need to do some research to see what some of the gaps are
19:20 blue +1
20:02 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #95: Map Discord reactions to IRC messages - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/95
20:02 dreamreal blue: sign off on the idea?
20:34 blue dreamreal: done
20:34 dreamreal All looks good, then?
20:34 blue yes
20:34 blue I left a comment, so yes
20:34 dreamreal Okay, will start on it, shouldn't be a leap, but we may have to re-sign on to discord to reset perms, will have to see
20:35 blue `The bridge is for convenience, not fidelity` is a good faith compromise
20:35 dreamreal *nod*
20:36 dreamreal I'm not trying to do a perfect 1:1 mapping, esp between protocols that don't provide equivalent features: I DO think it's a good idea to do what makes sense
20:36 blue it should be a non-trivial effort, but not a maximalistic one
20:37 blue the nature of the platforms' difference make a maximalistic approach essentially a blackhole
20:37 dreamreal I think it's pretty trivial, actually
20:37 blue makes*
20:37 blue ya, if it's trivial to you, all the better
20:37 dreamreal okay, just checked: this is going to be a lot easier than I thought
20:38 dreamreal working on it (was concerned about access to the reactions, which I was worried would be a re-invite - instead, it's JUST another message type/translation into messages.)
20:39 blue that's great
20:39 blue always better when the path is clear
20:39 dreamreal The hard part's going to be the throttling, because we HAVE throttling but it's at a different layer, this is internal to the bridge
20:40 dreamreal but I don't think "hard part" is actually "hard to write," it's just "let me make sure we don't spam 40 "* :discord:foobar: :heart:" style messages in a row
20:40 blue keep a counter; consider it reset by a 'normal' message, and set it at MAX=N with N of your choosing (5?)
20:40 dreamreal yeah, something like that
20:40 dreamreal just a stepped counter
20:41 blue the logic being that a message is a sort of cutoff; reaction is 'less' interesting and less likely, now that the old message has swung past
20:41 dreamreal the messages are not actually queued at any point in the system, so it just needs to collect them with an expiry
20:41 dreamreal oooo that's a good idea. Hmm. It's actually more complicated than my idea, though
20:41 blue this more or less corresponds to discord dynamics
20:42 blue in my anecdotal experience, reactions typically fall when a message isn't the latest anymore
20:43 dreamreal It's actually an update to a message, can happen any time
20:43 dreamreal the discord API is a POS :D
20:43 blue actually, that's a chance, no? set a cutoff *time*; reactions after a few minutes can be discord, and ALWAYS when a new message already arrived
20:44 blue s/discord/discarded/
20:44 blue or if you want to be lenient, always allow for reactions, until a new message has arrived; then stop
20:45 blue that would make a lot of sense, no?
20:45 blue it would certainly prevent random thumbsup appearing out of nowhere
20:45 blue thumbsups*
20:45 dreamreal Well, the problem is that it makes the bridge slightly stateful. But that might be okay, working on it.
20:46 blue the only state you need thought is O(1). just keep the time of the last message, and match that
20:46 blue though*
20:47 blue if the reacted message is not the last message (as matched by time), ignore the reaction. reactions in themselves don't count.
20:47 dreamreal right, THAT's statefulness.
20:47 blue and feel free to keep this info in memory, you don't even need to persist. it's not that important
20:48 blue yes but it's a very, very cheap form of statefulness
20:48 blue it's just a few bytes in memory, per bridge
20:49 blue you're gonna need millions of bridge for this become noticeable on any scale
20:49 blue bridges*
20:49 blue any which point... you have different concerns
20:49 dreamreal I'm not worried about MEMORY, I'm worried about state
20:50 dreamreal Discord has a message state concept that may not map cleanly to the bridge for slack
20:50 blue if you really are, then read the last message in the channel on discord, and use that to compare?
20:51 dreamreal wow, that's even worse for statefulness :D
20:51 dreamreal I'm working on it, I think I have a model to use
20:51 blue but anyway you see it, throttling IMPLIES state
20:51 dreamreal right, it's a matter of what kind of state and where and how it's managed
20:51 blue you can't do throttling without keeping some information about the past aside
20:52 dreamreal I know how computers work, my friend :D
20:52 blue I frankly don't think this is any state worth saving in a db, if that was your dear
20:52 blue fear*
20:52 dreamreal it never was, although the DB has a lot of that information
20:53 dreamreal but I'm trying to keep the adapters as stateless as possible
20:53 blue at work, we do oauth. and we keep the authcode (those five minutes code you exactly for a token) in a map in-memory
20:53 dreamreal so I'm going to, well, keep it as stateless as possible
20:53 blue technically if the server restarted at some point, we'd lose that info: but it's such a stupidly unimportant info that it doesn't matter
20:53 blue s/exactly/exchange/
21:23 jreicher I think my favourite joke is this one. A congregation are trying to decide, once and for all, whether they should stand or sit for the shema. Failing to come to a conclusion they decide to consult their retired rabbi to find out what the tradition is. "Rabbi, is it the tradition to stand for the shema?". "Hmm. No, that's not the tradition". "Rabbi, is it the tradition then to sit for the shema?". "Oh. Hmm. No, that's not the
21:23 jreicher tradition". "But then if we don't know, half the people stand, half the people sit, and everyone argues about it!". "Yes! THAT'S the tradition!"
21:23 dreamreal bwahahaha I've never heard that one!
21:24 dreamreal My favorite jewish joke: a man goes to an orthodox rabbi, and says, "Rabbi, i wish to affix a mezuzah to my lamborghini, is it acceptable?" And the rabbi goes "hmm, hmm, what's a lamborghini?" and the man explains that it's a very fancy car, and the rabbi grabs his cane and rage and beats the man until he leaves.
21:25 dreamreal the man then goes to a conservative rabbi, and says, "Rabbi, i wish to affix a mezuzah to my lamborghini, is it acceptable?" And the rabbi goes "hmm, interesting, what's a lamborghini?" and the man explains again that it's a very fancy car, and the rabbi grabs his an umbrella and shouts at the man until he leaves.
21:26 blue jreicher: hahaha, that's a GREAT one
21:26 dreamreal The man finally goes to a reform rabbi, and says "rabbi, rabbi, I wish to affix a mezuzah to my lamborghini, is it acceptable?" and the rabbi looks at him, confused, and says... "what's a mezuzah?"
21:27 jreicher dreamreal: Oh no! I thought this was going to be some kind of shammai/hillel reference, but instead it goes for the truth!
21:27 dreamreal hahaha
21:27 blue HAHAHAHA dreamreal
21:27 dreamreal cracks me up EVERY TIME
21:27 blue this bites every time!
21:31 blue jreicher: are you also a Jew? this channel is NEVER going to work!
21:31 dreamreal cue all the reform jews going "... we don't get it"
21:33 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #96: Adds reactions to discord and slack - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/96
21:33 * nevet joined #nevet
21:33 * dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
21:33 jreicher Give me a few minutes to come up with a 19th
21:33 dreamreal jreicher: so as you can see, blue and I argue halakha and similar all the time, chime in if you like
21:33 blue it's YOUR fault for creating a BOT whose essence is probably the most JEWISH thing I've seen
21:33 blue I wanna do EVERYTHING at once but ALSO be everything at once!
21:34 dreamreal jreicher: blue has me beat like a drum in some areas but I beat him like a redheaded stepchild in others
21:34 dreamreal he wins at all the insignificant bits
21:34 blue I'm kidding though: nevet is great and is actually supremely helpful
21:34 blue I've always wanted a discord-irc bridge
21:35 jreicher My text knowledge is actually quite awful, so I expect I'll be learning things from you guys. Most of what I know I learned listening to sermons.
21:36 dreamreal that's how most of us learn
21:37 jreicher Yeah. I'm actually quite grateful for the parshah cycle in a way that I never thought I would be when I was younger. I actually know some torah as a result.
21:37 dreamreal jreicher: you ever read r/judaism on reddit?
21:38 jreicher No, but that's because I don't do reddit it at all. I really struggle reading everything I want to read and I don't yet have a reason to prioritise reddit above other things. I was dipping in when I set up an RSS feed though. Maybe I should give that another go.
21:40 dreamreal I will warn you: it's... rough
21:40 jreicher But you yourself read it?
21:40 jreicher Maybe even contribute?
21:40 dreamreal yes, but I am made of iron and have the constitution of ... something really strong
21:41 dreamreal You get the mystical barely-as-a-jew people on there, the people for whom kabbalah and torah are the same things... and then you get the very very frum, and then you get the ex-yeshivists, all arguing back and forth
21:42 blue dreamreal: I think it's time we told jreicher about kn
21:42 blue because that person was REAL
21:42 dreamreal ohlord
21:42 blue highly messed up, but real
21:42 dreamreal yeah, he'd fit right in with the kabbalah=torah? group
21:42 blue yup
21:42 blue so this guy, kn, shows up in a channel of mine where dreamreal is also hanging around
21:43 jreicher Pretty much what I would expect. I think more than anything I would be impatient rather than hurt in a forum that was aggressive and/or dogmatic. Some of the most valuable ideas in a discussion are the half-formed ones that can be easily shouted down in their early form but can turn into strong ideas given some gentle attention.
21:43 dreamreal I struggle on r/judaism because I see talmud as being essentially organic
21:43 dreamreal and there are LOTS of frum people on there who see torah as absolute and I just don't get it
21:43 dreamreal so they're like "yes, yes, cut off your third finger if this happens, I WOULD NEVER TOLERATE THEE"
21:43 jreicher Of course it's bloody organic. Used to oral. And a key part of our tradition is constant reinterpretation, even if we agree not to change the text.
21:43 blue and he starts having the craziest ideas. I don't remember all of it... but once he discovers we are both jews, he starts going on about how he wants us to teach him kabbalah magic, so that his wife (which he didn't have, at that point, so purely theoretical) wouldn't go with other men
21:44 jreicher ...used to be oral...
21:44 dreamreal yeah, kn was NUTS
21:44 dreamreal wanted magic spells
21:44 dreamreal was watching this rabbi on youtube who was an absolute crackpot
21:44 blue yeah. this guy like, of ALL the rabbis in the world, found out the WORST one
21:44 blue and decided he's gonna listen to him
21:45 dreamreal and he was an antisemite to boot! Wanted to covert because of access to the spells, you know
21:45 dreamreal was utterly mystifying
21:45 jreicher He's probably a freemason now.
21:45 blue he was convinced we're very rich, too, and have spells of gold, which is also antisemitic
21:45 dreamreal jreicher: it wouldn't surprise me at all if he'd applied
21:45 blue frankly: I WISH I had spells of gold
21:45 dreamreal but even the freemasons would filter him out, I think
21:45 dreamreal he was pretty unstable
21:45 blue that would make life so much easier
21:46 dreamreal jreicher: It's amazing how crazy people can be sometimes
21:46 dreamreal I get it but not why
21:47 dreamreal and I tend to try to be very gentle
21:47 blue he was really off the deep end
21:47 blue in a very weird, almost unsettling way
21:47 dreamreal https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1rcekic/comment/o6xn2hj/
21:47 dreamreal ^^^ that's me
21:48 jreicher I feel like I know why, but I know I'm falling into pop psychology in my thinking. It has to do with maladaptive strategies and all that. Often I look at these people and just see the pain they're in, and the inappropriate ways they are seeking comfort.
21:48 dreamreal jreicher: ++
21:48 nevet jreicher now has karma of 2.
21:48 blue there is this typical class of, I call them soft antisemites, who are just 'interested' in Judaism, but the questions they are SO indicative, and some of pretend to make any effort to really hide but it always, without exception, comes out in the end
21:48 dreamreal It's hard not to respond: you want to correct, but they don't want or need correction, they need HEALING
21:48 blue the questions they have*
21:49 dreamreal and they ask for healing from communities that aren't actually DESIGNED for healing: "oh man I'm in such pain, I'll ask facebook"
21:49 dreamreal uh.. will you?
21:49 blue the kn guy was one of them: "teach me spells"... uh, no. I don't know any spells. I don't know kabbalah and wouldn't dabble in it like a fool without knowing the basics of the religion
21:49 dreamreal i know kaballah, but kn took my advice about it very poorly
21:50 dreamreal because the right advice was "no."
21:52 blue the right advice was, stop the cocaine (to which he admitted being addicted in the past, I think 'in the past' could well be dropped)
21:52 dreamreal kaballah is to be avoided by most on general principle alone: barring that, it requires a very secure life and surroundings, and a very strong grounding in what traditional judaism entails, and he had NONE of it.
21:52 dreamreal it's not "advanced judaism," it's different judaism, and a way of seeing judaism differently; it's not BETTER.
21:53 blue but also he had a very transactional idea of judaism: he wanted to become a jew to get all the spells, the women (what women?) and the gold
21:53 jreicher The drug addicts I've known can't really stop until they have something else (healthy) to do.
21:53 dreamreal kn's approach to judaism was NOT healthy.
21:53 jreicher blue: oh, that's ridiculous.
21:53 dreamreal blue's right, he was VERY transactional about it - and when we couldn't or wouldn't help him do whatever transaction he wanted like little jewish vending machiines, he'd get angry at us and start ranting
21:54 jreicher And also sounds like a lack of self-worth that he was attempting to address with a really infantile concept of success.
21:54 dreamreal jreicher: so... question: how do you find #java?
21:54 dreamreal like, grade it. I'm interested.
21:54 dreamreal not *for java* but as a culture/community.
21:55 dreamreal jreicher: oh, he was very bad off, needed an actual in-person psychologist and was trying to replace one with ... a sort of dime-store imported judaism, like hanging out with 'real jews' online would make up for a lack
21:55 dreamreal note: he was not jewish in the slightest, in any way
21:55 dreamreal all of his judaism was imported via youtube
21:55 jreicher Re #java, for me, personally, it's useful, but honestly I have nothing to compare it to. Most programmers I know aren't interested in "right" ways of doing things or in trying to understand why a language (library, framework, ...) might be the way it is.
21:56 blue in the end it got really bad. he started sending me pm calling me a bad jew for not practising whatever his deranged idea of what I should be doing
21:56 blue like actively messaging me on shabbat and telling me I'm gonna burn in hell for typing back
21:56 blue totally crazy
21:56 blue pms*
21:56 dreamreal hey he was trying to out-frum everyone
21:56 dreamreal I wanted to ask how long his peyos were
21:57 dreamreal (he did not know what they were)
21:57 dreamreal also; I do not have them. :D
21:57 blue ya
21:58 blue (it was no use telling him we don't have a concept of hell really, and he's applying christian thought)
21:58 blue I think he was really beyond saving
21:59 blue hopefully he's doing better, unlikely though it may
22:00 dreamreal I hope he is
22:19 dreamreal I'm actually really happy with nevet's progress: I really want to figure out the auth issues (and kinabalu DOES have experience here) but that's the main blocker
22:41 blue dreamreal: with all due respect, kinabalu is talking out of his butt. auth0 is just an abstraction, it doesn't solve the fundamental issue. you STILL need the whole acl dance. auth0 doesn't save you from that, it's just an identity layer
22:42 dreamreal Okay: he has a chance to back up the claim.
22:42 blue and honestly if your framework has something like passportjs or spring security then just go with that. delegating nonsense to the cloud is what clowns do
22:43 blue this guy just heard auth0 somewhere and now he's parroting it
22:44 dreamreal It's a little more than that: he may be misunderstanding the problem we're trying to solve
22:44 dreamreal it's not just "are you who you say you are" but we need to have an idea of who you say you are, too
22:46 blue then maybe he ought to read the entire issue instead of pooping all over it with like four words
22:46 dreamreal Sure! But that's why I'm pushing back, too
22:47 blue I don't like when people do this: if several people took the time to think about something, and you just come around and dismiss it with half a sentence, then you're either a genius or a moron. in most cases, a moron
22:53 blue so basically: Identity Proof -> Internal User -> Role -> ACL -> Service Binding
22:53 blue the ONLY thing auth0 'solves' is the first step. and you don't need a huge dance to solve it yourself
22:59 blue auth0 is basically an SSO. which is something you use when you have MANY services all sharing the same underlying user pool. you CAN use it for one app, but it's a total overkill imho. what happens if a user wants to change his email? this now becomes an indirection dance where you need to change it both in your db and in auth0's. or you don't store it at all, which means showing it is solely relying on JWT.
22:59 blue auth0 is a dumpster fire