jreicherdreamreal: I've only just started reading through the discussion about merging nevet into the streampack repo, so I apologise if this has been covered, but does the code share any history?
jreicherblue: what's the issue with == vs equals()?
jreicherI've read the argument but I'm not entirely sure why it bothers you
jreicherIs it only because people make mistakes with it? So you wish the language was designed in a way to makes this mistake impossible?
jreicherBut also I don't think you're right about identity=contents, ever. Values don't have "content". I think the closest you can get is a quoted value; then the quotation has content, and that content is a value. For example the actual number 5 vs me saying "the number 5", which is a quoted expression denoting that value.
dreamrealjreicher: nevet and streampack are similar designs but the codebase is 100% rewritten
dreamrealI think the main thing they share is the banner.txt
dreamrealnevet is actually an INSTANCE OF streampack
dreamrealthe history is: purl, a newsbot, then a series of java irc bots, then javabot, then streampack as a sort of information-processing octopus done with a handwritten operations queue, then what we have now, which is based on spring integration channels because that's a lot better than a handwritten threading model
dreamrealI might do a hangman operation too, because that's actually a better game than 21 matches, it's just *more* of a game, and 21 matches is enough to prove out the capability :D
jreicherdreamreal: I mean something very specific by "history" here. I mean is there a story you want to tell about the two codebases by constructing a repo with ancestor commits they both have in common, etc.
jreicherSo, for example, would you want to take the rewritten code and rebase it on top of the old code. It wouldn't change anything about the new code, but you'd construct a narrative about that code's history.
dreamrealNope. The old code is a stab that failed.
jreicherWell if there's no story to tell then it sounds like you might just want to cherry pick the features you want to bring across. You can have two branches with no shared history in the same repo to make that easy, as you probably know. (I've done this.)
dreamrealMy thought is that the old streampack code isn't worth preserving; the main interesting things about it were that the parsing was "better," using a packrat parser instead of just predictable word scans. But that had its own problems.
bluehe doesn't need the old repo at all, but he was close to falling into an investor's fallacy trap, from which I saved him
* jreicher joined #nevet
dreamreal~karma jreicher
dreamrealkarma jreicher
nevetjreicher has karma of 1.
dreamrealkarma teckla
nevetteckla has karma of 2.
dreamrealthe decay hasn't set in yet. :D
dreamrealChronos: BTW, doing some research on Talarico is... not comforting
dreamrealhe seems like a politibot: he's totally not gay, y'all, he dated a homecoming queen in *high school*. Uhh... what? Why is that relevant? That comes across very much as "Candidate *click* *whirrrr* is very familiar with the [tape spins] human breast as possessed by the females of the [whirrr] species."
dreamrealplus, his pushback on christian nationalism seems coded: I'm all for christians NOT being nationalist (I'm not even really sure how the two terms go together, but I'm a simple man) but he seems to be "one of the good christians" from the left, meaning a christian - a SEMINARIAN - who's happy to discard the aspects of his faith relatively routinely.
dreamreal"Sure, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, but that seems exclusive, so I'mma change that to 'a' way so people aren't upset, never mind that jesus also told his followers that the truth would upset others"
dreamrealI'm a little odd, admittedly: I don't mind when Christians try to convert me. I mean, if they believe their religion, if I'm NOT converted I'm going to hell - for them to not make the attempt is for them to shrug at the idea that I'm going to hell, which feels a lot more offensive than them telling me my theology is broken.
dreamreal(That's not to say I don't recoil some when they're like "We resent you jews for putting j-dawg on a stick" - I get it, but that's comically missing a whole lot of points. I live near a seminary; I know a shitload of pastors. I know how it works, in a theological system, and "we resent you for this thing that gives us access to the grace we all say we need" isn't it.)
dreamrealI understand the resentment in a simple system - it's pretty natural. But acting on it controverts not only THE MAIN POINT, but a crapload of the other points, too. The resentment comes from a lack of understanding, and as in so many other areas, basic education would fix a lot of error.
dreamreal(one of the things I like about christianity is that christianity has *written scriptures* - which implies that the believers should know how to understand scripture, at the very least, and protestantism emphasizes *the ability to read it for yourself*. Hard to lose there, even when some people read poorly.)
* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
bluedreamreal: what's wrong with christian nationalism?
dreamrealblue: the term is broken, because it doesn't actually mean anything concrete
blueif you're okay with saudi-arabia as a country form, you shouldn't take issue with christian nationalism
dreamrealI can see a way to apply "christian nationalism" in a way that it's absolutely harmful: "we're a christian nation, you better be one of dem christians afore we allows you to do certain things, y'know!"
dreamrealWell, there you go: I'm not. :D
bluebut what's the problem, isn't it? most people, usually leftists, who are against christian nationalism, don't seem to have much of a problem saudi-arabia or qatar, or investments of these countries in the west, or visiting dubai
dreamrealif being a christian nationalist means you're a patriot and identify with core american values - which includes the whole melting pot idea, where a jew and a muslim and an atheist and a christian all have equal access and rights under the law, preferring none and rejecting none insofar as they all subscribe to the american dream (or whatever the national dream is, I guess, if it's not in america)
dreamrealthen I don't see a problem with it.
bluethey just hate christians
dreamrealSee, you're arguing against a straw man who's been constructed AS a straw man, and you're not wrong, but ... it's still a straw man
blueI'm only telling you the problems people have with christian nationalism aren't mostly because of their deranged, unrational hate of specifically christians
blueare*
bluethat those don't take issue with muslim nationalism tells you everything
dreamrealit sounds like t... yeah, was going to say "it sounds like the opposite." And maybe so. I just don't know what the term actually means concretely, so I can't form an opinion about it.
bluea religious-based nationalism. a theocracy
bluethis isn't hard, you don't really need to pretend you don't understand, there are actual existing nations that fulfill this, for islam
dreamrealI oppose a theocracy in any event: I don't even want a Jewish theocracy. We tried that crap. Didn't last, shouldn't have lasted.
bluesaudi-arabia, iran, qatar, dubai
dreamrealWho are you arguing with?
bluewith you, claiming you don't know what the term means
bluethe term is pretty clear cut
bluea christian theocracy
dreamreali don't know what "the term" means. I know how some people use it as an insult and a mark. The meaning seems derived entirely from its use as a negative.
blueand to some extent the US has elements of a christian theocracy. like printing 'in god we trust' on your notes
blueit's not fully crazy like saudi-arabia though
dreamrealFunny: I don't know of ANYONE anywhere seriously arguing for a christian theocracy here. Like, the closest we get is "in god we trust" and "let's put the ten commandments in schools." That's really a baseline assertion of common mores, though, which is far from a theocracy.
blueyes, and I was asking you, what's wrong with a christian theocracy?
blueif it's ok to have muslim theocracies, it surely must be ok to christian theocracies
dreamrealThe same thing as ANY theocracy: it depends on the priests at the head of it. And they're unreliable. If Yoshke were LITERALLY at the head of the government of the *world* - well, that says a lot about Judaism, doesn't it? - then I think it might be okay, given that he'd probably spend a decent amount of time keeping the more insane of his followers in line: "No, I said LOVE thy neighbor, you
dreamrealjackass, GET IN LINE OR ELSE."
dreamrealI don't think it's okay to have muslim theocracies, so...
blueso now we're getting to the bottom of it. ALL theocracies are crazy. but critiques of a christian theocracy only focus on that, although none such currently exist!
blueiow, the criticism ITSELF is a strawman
bluethe problem doesn't exist
dreamreal... which is what I was saying?
bluechristian nationalism is NOT a concept mappable to reality
dreamrealping me when you say something I didn't already assert, I'll be interested and waiting
blueit's just used as a kampfwort by people, mostly leftists, who specifically HATE christians, mostly by extension of them hating the west and hating themselves
dreamrealright, which is why talarico's use of the term was a notable point. I don't know what the term actually MEANS, like, concretely. I know how it's used by people in specific instances. But the term itself doesn't seem to mean a lot.
bluethat's the point though. if he uses the term, he's just as bad as his fellow woke crazies
dreamrealIt's a shibboleth: "I'm one of the good ones, people, I oppose this thing that nobody actually seems to support en masse."
blueYES
blueand that's the worst kind of behaviour, bandwaggoning on nonsense as this
dreamrealLike I said, I STARTED OUT with this point
dreamrealActually, i shoudl start a political party: our platform will be "we don't like biting off our own necks."
blueha
bluealso, as a lemma, I'm opposed to the idea that nationalism is bad
bluenationalism and nation states are great ways to map reality
blueone of the US' issues is that its identity is fully materialistic
bluethat is, the fact ANYONE can subscribe to be american by adopting some weird subset of 'values' is... MAYBE something that can work in small places like singapore, but will never work for a country of 350 million
dreamrealJust think of my party's attack ads: "Kamala Harris: SOFT ON SELF-NECK-BITING BEHAVIORS. Is this who you want in power?"
dreamrealI think the american model's pretty strong, really: we just allow people to ignore what the subset of values is.
bluelet's consider this: why do you think shootings / gun homicide is such a problem in the US whilst not being the same in Canada or Switzerland, who have roughly the same % of guns per person / gun ownership rates?
bluesurely if guns were the problem, we'd see the same issue in .ch or .ca, but we don't
dreamrealConflation of issues, mostly. money. :D
blueso what *is* the underlying problem
dreamrealI was actually wondering how much of our social issues we could fix by simply addressing tort law effectively
bluewell surely money it is, but I think that's too simplistic an answer
blueyou're the only country with no materity pay leave, with a totally broken health system, with almost no termination protection, and with the ability to sue anyone for anything
bluematernity*
dreamrealThere is no simple answer, and this is IRC: it's not the right medium for that discussion and it's a VERY complicated discussion. Exposure and social trust, and the exploitation of those things, is a lot of it.
bluethose issues ALL arise from your core values
dreamrealBut that's why I was thinking tort law: insurance is INCREDIBLY expensive because MEDICINE is incredibly expensive because if a doctor sneezes at the wrong time and someone gets hurt, they spend MILLIONS. But sneezes are normal!
blueexactly
dreamrealwe, as americans, demand entitled protection against things the universe leverages against anyone and everyone without reprieve.
bluelike what?
dreamrealAnd yet you can't just say "that needs to be curtailed harshly" because... sometimes a doctor or lawyer DOES practice incompetently, and tort restrictions protect THEM instead of the people they harm.
dreamrealwell, like... okay, a doctor does something terrible: amputates the WRONG LIMB. (Ew, I'm terrified of amputation, my heart rate just skyrocketed.) But ... why? That doctor is going to get sued into oblivion: that's why he has malpractice insurance. But that insurance drives up costs, because of risk management. There's nothing providing the DOCTOR protection against malpractice suits - that specific
dreamrealexample is pretty obvious, but doesn't address cause, and there are PLENTY of other reasons to get sued for malpractice, including simple nuisance.
dreamrealBut if a doctor IS incompetent, WHY SHOULDN'T his victim get compensated generously? That's the problem: both sides working against each other.
bluetort is too complicated. it means you need to look into people's mind and prove intent
blueother countries do well without it, the US doesn't need it
* dreamreal shrugs. Welcome to jurisprudence.
dreamreal... says the guy who's host culture argues about who owns the pit and where that pit is located when an ox is injured. :D
dreamrealwhose, sorry
dreamrealit IS complicated, and reducing it to numbers is dehumanizing... almost like what we see in tort law and in how health is administered in the United States. I am not satisfied with it. At all. Yet I don't know how to fix it mechanically.
bluewell, YES
dreamrealblue: so what do you think of my harebrained star traders idea? :D
dreamrealI guess part of it is that the idea of doing an actual economy for star traders has been an interest of mine for literal ever - I've done it in pascal, in C, etc - and nevet's a good platform to actually make it multiplayer
* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealhangman queue
nevetError: Unknown hangman command. Use 'hangman' to start, 'hangman <letter>' to guess, or 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealhangman r
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ r _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: r) -- 'r' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman a
nevetHangman: _ a _ _ r a _ a (6/6 lives, guessed: a, r) -- 'a' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman n
nevetHangman: _ a n _ r a _ a (6/6 lives, guessed: a, n, r) -- 'n' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman p
nevetHangman: p a n _ r a _ a (6/6 lives, guessed: a, n, p, r) -- 'p' is in the word!
dreamrealhah!
dreamrealhangman o
nevetHangman: p a n o r a _ a (6/6 lives, guessed: a, n, o, p, r) -- 'o' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman m
nevetYou got it! The word was 'panorama'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealhangman r
nevetHangman: _ _ _ r _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: r) -- 'r' is in the word!
* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealcheating again:
dreamrealhangman centipede
nevetError: Unknown hangman command. Use 'hangman' to start, 'hangman <letter>' to guess, or 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealhangman solve centipede
nevetImpressive! Or suspicious. Let's go with impressively suspicious. The word was 'centipede'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealcheating again, hold on
dreamrealhangman a
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ a _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: a) -- 'a' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman solve cinnamon
nevetA single letter and you saw the whole word? Nicely done! The word was 'cinnamon'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
dreamrealone more time
dreamrealhangman a
nevetError: No game in progress. Use 'hangman' to start a new game.
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealhangman p
nevetHangman: _ _ p p _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: p) -- 'p' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman l
nevetHangman: _ _ p p _ l _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: l, p) -- 'l' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman solve zeppelin
nevetYou got it! The word was 'zeppelin'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
jreicherAre their Christian nationalists who actually describe themselves that way? I've always felt it's a label chosen by critics rather than proponents.
dreamrealjreicher: I don't know
dreamrealoff for a few hours
dreamrealcomments welcomed on the star traders thing, it's kinda wack :D
jreicherI've never played the game so will have to read about it. The "Why this fits nevet" section you wrote seems to be key here.
jreicherHmm. My main concern about the idea are the ticks, because they would continue while "players" are away. That might be more than just frustrating for the player; that might damage the economic model of the game.
Chronosdreamreal: The only thing I know about Talarico is what I saw during his Colbert interview.
ChronosI thought the definition for Christian Nationalism is the desire for the U.S. to be a Christian theocracy.
jreicherThat's not my impression. It's something like a country "for Christians" and "based" on "Christian values", but still otherwise secular law. I think a theocracy is where the system of government and law is itself part of the religious framework.
Chronosjreicher: It sounds like dreamreal has a point about the term not being well defined.
jreicherAbsolutely
jreicherWhich is why I asked if any of "them" use it to describe themselves
dreamrealthe ticks for star trader would be pretty coarse: like, one "tick" every four hours, six hours, whatever. It wouldn't be a five-minute game.
dreamrealand I don't know anyone who describes themselves as a christian nationalist. It's only a slur in my experience, which makes me wonder what it means.
jreicherMy impression too.
jreicherIt suits mudslingers to be vague about what they mean