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#nevet

1. 00:01 blue instead he wants to make it configurable... which uh.. is ok, doesn't make the default behaviour any less quirky
2. 00:02 blue so basically no human is gonna parse A DASHDASH B as A is the karma'd object, and B is the comment, if A and/or B are anything resembling a sentence
3. 00:03 blue having a karma feature is a nice-to-have. having a flowing conversation the bot doesn't lose its mind in the middle and spews nonsense is *basics*
4. 00:03 blue where the bot*
5. 00:05 blue this also leads to some really weird situations (the following is a test)
6. 00:05 blue josh -- did you read my pm?
7. 00:05 nevet josh now has karma of -1.
8. 00:05 blue ^ dumb
9. 00:05 * Chronos doesn't have a strong opinion on it one way or another
10. 00:05 Chronos But I feel compelled to clean up the mess I made, so please disregard the following two messages
11. 00:06 Chronos blue: I'd probably use emdashes if I knew how to type them. I used to use ++
12. 00:06 nevet blue: I'd probably use emdashes if I knew how to type them. I used to use has neutral karma.
13. 00:06 blue lol
14. 00:06 blue re strong opinion: as you should. dreamreal and I are going to butt head on this until the messiah arrives, and it's good that way
15. 00:06 Chronos At a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the ++ or -- characters.
16. 00:06 nevet At a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the ++ or now has karma of -1.
17. 00:06 blue heads*
18. 00:06 Chronos Whoops, what did I do wrong there...
19. 00:07 Chronos t a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the ++
20. 00:07 nevet t a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the now has karma of 1.
21. 00:07 Chronos UGH.
22. 00:07 Chronos At a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the ++
23. 00:07 nevet At a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the now has karma of 1.
24. 00:07 Chronos t a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the --
25. 00:07 nevet t a guess, ignore the line if it has text that follows the has neutral karma.
26. 00:07 blue oh man, you just keeping polluting the db even more, LOL
27. 00:07 Chronos Oh no, I was hoping neutral karma would clean up the DB :)
28. 00:07 blue anyway, dreamreal indicated karma is selfhealing
29. 00:07 blue or well, 'fades away' or whatever
30. 00:07 Chronos dreamreal: Sorry! I'm unintentionally causing chaos! :(
31. 00:16 blue --
32. 00:16 blue ---
33. 00:16 nevet - now has karma of -1.
34. 00:16 blue ----
35. 00:16 nevet -- now has karma of -1.
36. 00:16 blue welp
37. 00:17 blue I prefer explicit karma, anyway. like +1 or -1. but I guess that could have other caveats
38. 02:15 dreamreal Chronos: the format is subject operation comment
39. 02:15 dreamreal operations are the inc or dec operators, and consumption for subject is greedy
40. 02:16 dreamreal So you can do:
41. 02:16 dreamreal C++-- this language sucks!
42. 02:16 nevet C++ now has karma of -2.
43. 02:16 dreamreal Or:
44. 02:16 dreamreal C++++ this language rocks!
45. 02:16 nevet C++ now has karma of -1.
46. 02:16 dreamreal and blue likes using the emdash as a formal writing conceit, so he's like "hey I use the emdsh and it turns into a karma operation waaaaaaaah"
47. 02:16 dreamreal and he's wrong
48. 02:17 dreamreal (BTW, #java's karma works ALMOST like this, without the greedy subject bits because javabot is older code and I don't like it and I'm not going to fix it)
49. 02:18 dreamreal in practice, it's a pretty mild human interface thing: it's a little noisy when it's unintentionally fired, it's REALLY noisy when you're chatting about it
50. 02:19 dreamreal and it's possibly really noisy if you write like an AI and use emdashes all over the place
51. 02:20 dreamreal So... I might add an option to provide a stupid special exception for squeaky whiners^W^Wspecial morons^Wcases like blue's, where some channels don't apply the emdash if it's surrounded by spaces, which is going to have problems of its own
52. 02:21 jreicher Wait—I'm confused—there's a problem with emdashes?
53. 02:22 dreamreal I fully expect a flurry of bug reports about how it's not applied when OBVIOUSLY he meant to apply it, all because the parsing works on tokens and not the things he expects it to work with, and he just never realizes that I actually know how my own damn code works
54. 02:22 dreamreal jreicher: no
55. 02:22 dreamreal but if you embed emdashes in words as part of natural grammar -- like this -- they turn into karma operations
56. 02:22 nevet but if you embed emdashes in words as part of natural grammar -- like this now has karma of -1.
57. 02:22 jreicher That was a joke. :) A really nerdy typographical one.
58. 02:22 dreamreal you're a nerd
59. 02:23 dreamreal there IS an upper bound for karma subjects, but it's intentionally pretty gracious
60. 02:23 jreicher I actually don't know how common UTF8 is in IRC clients.
61. 02:23 jreicher Or unicode? Not sure what comes down the wire...
62. 02:23 dreamreal (Sorry, nevet` was running to test the UI, and I need to get a configuration that's more specific for local execution - it needs an MTA!)
63. 02:24 dreamreal emdash in uft-8 is just two dashes - an ACTUAL emdash isn't a trigger
64. 02:24 jreicher I know. :)
65. 02:24 dreamreal so the problem is people FAKING the emdash
66. 02:24 dreamreal like fakers who want the emdash without actually using it
67. 02:24 dreamreal damn troublemakers
68. 02:24 dreamreal I'm bitching about it because it really is annoying
69. 02:25 dreamreal but it's late and sunday evening and I have other fish to fry, naming getting the UI working
70. 02:25 jreicher Totally get it, and the annoyance too.
71. 02:27 dreamreal Lots of really good fixes today, though: and github! That's another thing he's bitched about, but he's RIGHT There
72. 02:27 dreamreal I set it up to poll, for valid reasons, but supporting push would be a huge win
73. 02:28 dreamreal it's just not super-important for ME, so it's a lower priority, and getting the UI online is the key to getting bytecode.news online for real
74. 02:29 dreamreal (nevet = bytecode.news, the content module is designed for that, and it's all just different views of a single dataset)
75. 02:29 dreamreal 'night!
76. 02:31 jreicher o/
77. 08:38 blue dreamreal: "writing like an AI" is actually CORRECT. most people are dumb and get it wrong!
78. 08:39 blue why am I even telling you that. I'm not the Chicago manual of style
79. 08:40 blue the really stupid thing is en dash being a disparate character to the hyphen
80. 08:43 blue the reason I use double hyphens and not em dashes isn't unicode, but rather the fact I'd need to configure my keyboard to produce it, and I'd like to stick to the base ascii set with my keyboard
81. 09:00 jreicher blue: I was taught that endash has a distinct use that sets it apart from hyphen. Not your understanding? (I'm just curious.)
82. 09:08 blue jreicher: this might be the case, but it's a distinction without a merit imho. unlike em dash, they're not visually different enough, and also people commonly use hyphen in exactly those cases you're 'supposed' to use an en dash, like Einstein-Rosen bridge
83. 09:10 blue simplicity is king, there is no justified use for a character that looks markedly the same to another, and also isn't typable in ascii
84. 09:11 blue in most cases and many fonts, – and - look very similar or nearly identical
85. 09:12 blue yet, having a distinct character like that breaks stuff like search, where you might think they're hyphens, but you won't find them
86. 09:12 blue altogether, an awfully dumb idea to encode endashes separately to hyphens
87. 09:14 blue without merit*
88. 09:44 jreicher I didn't realise endashes could/should be used in that situation. I only learned of their use for number ranges.
89. 11:56 dreamreal Not only are you not the manual of style, you're not S&W either, and I'm a professional writer, I know this stuff better than you think
90. 11:56 dreamreal en- vs em-dash is a *typesetting* thing
91. 12:01 dreamreal for typesetting kerning, it makes sense. But we're doing DOING typesetting - we're TYPING. You don't manually align or justify your stuff on IRC; why would you? The em-dash is a similar, although more meaningful, affectation.
92. 12:02 dreamreal en- vs em- is *typesetting* and *kerning*. It's right there in the name. The difference is in width; one is the width of an n, the other the width of an m. In monospace they're the same.
93. 12:04 dreamreal it's prevalent in human writing because we learn to write by learning to READ, and much print in human history was typeset - and did I mention that em- vs. en- was a typesetting artifact? I'm pretty sure I did. And lo, we learn to write by following those who used em- vs en- in specific circumstances because of typesetting and we inherited rules that don't actually matter.
94. 12:04 dreamreal It's like "why do we cut off the ends of pot roasts, mother?" as the old joke goes
95. 12:05 dreamreal mother goes "I don't know, my mother did it" so the girl asks grandmother, who shrugs and says "*I* cut off the ends of pot roasts because my pan was small and they wouldn't fit, I don't know whyyour mother does it, her pan's bigger than mine was"
96. 12:08 dreamreal all of this to say: I don't really care if HUMANS use em- or en-dashes, or when, or if they're consistent about it or not - humans do learn to write by learning to read, and intent is more important than presentation. Thus we don't go about saying "you used two spaces when one is correct" all the time, or viciously corecting spelling when we can. It only shows up HERE because of karma, which creates
97. 12:08 dreamreal an artificial clash when you use the affectation.
98. 12:40 blue dreamreal: the point holds, and has been pointed out by others here. Your bot breaks expectation: having a flowing conversation is WAY more important than a karma feature, which is an addon. this unexpected behaviour makes the software dumb. software should have undumb defaults
99. 12:41 blue no amount of configuration shenanigans is gonna change the point
100. 12:42 dreamreal I agree, but we disagree that the default is dumb, here, because IRC is *not* a typical human conversation. if it were spoken, IRC would be utter madness, because conversational threads are not maintained; this is an artificial albeit understandable desire on YOUR part.
101. 12:43 blue it's only artificial if you live in an ivory tower
102. 12:43 dreamreal I get it: the emdash separation feature is actually an acceptance criterion for #41. Your point is being addressed, even though I find it overly restrictive.
103. 12:43 dreamreal But I'm not going to pretend it's anything but an affectation on your part.
104. 12:44 blue it's not an affection at all. I've been using double dashes in IRC, and generally online, for just about forever. YOU are telling me to change how I write to not trigger your dumb bot
105. 12:44 blue an affectation it would be, were I to use this style EXTRA to annoy you
106. 12:45 blue in fact I've already consciously avoided using them in this conversation, and this annoys me to no end
107. 12:46 blue double dashes are a pretty common replacement/representation of emdash online (in mailing lists, too), and pretending this is someone else's problem isn't a good answer
108. 12:47 dreamreal mein Gott
109. 12:47 blue do better!
110. 12:48 dreamreal You're like a dog with a bone on this. With all due respect: shut up. I've already filed an issue on it. You'll be able to change the behavior as you wish. You're literally straining at a gnat, all because you've cargo-culted a writing affectation.
111. 12:48 blue it's not an affectation! I disagree with the premise
112. 12:48 dreamreal And you can use them; this is IRC. It's pretty normal for conversations to be trivially interrupted.
113. 12:48 dreamreal You disagree with... how em-dashes CAME TO BE and WHY? With all due respect, that IS stupid.
114. 12:48 dreamreal They are TYPESETTING. It is IN THE NAME.
115. 12:49 blue wait what
116. 12:49 blue the point above was about en-dashes, not em-dashes
117. 12:49 blue are you even reading
118. 12:49 dreamreal "double dashes" are an attempt to use em-dashes in forums in which they do not exist.
119. 12:50 blue it's not an attempt. it's a representation since keyboards typically don't have them
120. 12:50 dreamreal it's a freaking hyphen. A short horizontal line. That's what it is. If you were writing with pen, you'd make the line and move on.
121. 12:50 dreamreal Of course they don't, because they are TYPESETTING.
122. 12:50 blue yes but I'm not writing with a pen
123. 12:50 dreamreal You're not setting type either!
124. 12:50 blue I'm writing online, and your bot shouldn't interfere with dumb garbage entries
125. 12:50 blue that's like the first rule of bots, don't be annoying
126. 12:51 dreamreal So, uh, I have a question
127. 12:52 dreamreal if you're looking at a traffic stop, going "you know, that needs a light" and the local government goes "yes, that needs a light" and puts one in, do you still complain about the light being needed after it's been acknowledged, maybe even installed?
128. 12:52 blue this is NOT A GOOD COMPARISON, traffic lights are basics, the bot's karma feature isn't
129. 12:53 blue it's a playful stupidity, and as soon as it starts to be annoying, it's not playful and just a stupidity
130. 12:53 dreamreal The analogy holds: #41 exists, your feature is an acceptance criteria, and you won't shut up about it
131. 12:53 blue no, the analogy is garbage
132. 12:53 blue #41 doesn't solve it
133. 12:53 blue the defaults are still dumb
134. 12:53 dreamreal You know, I'm removing the feature as acceptance criteria now
135. 12:54 dreamreal just to annoy you
136. 12:54 blue that's fair, it's your software
137. 12:54 dreamreal you "won the battle" and yet you can't accept it, you demand philosophical agreement even though the intent is to give you everything you asked for
138. 12:54 dreamreal Now I'm gonna dig in my heels just to annoy you because you're annoying ME
139. 12:55 blue I didn't "win the battle", I don't want to configure EVERY INDIVIDUAL channel on discord to not use karma
140. 12:55 blue this will still end up with me removing the otherwise very useful bot
141. 12:55 dreamreal Bloody hell I SET IT UP SO THAT IT WOULD HAVE GLOBAL DEFAULTS
142. 12:55 blue which is just a pity
143. 12:55 dreamreal You won the fucking battle SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT
144. 12:55 dreamreal NO. MORE.
145. 12:57 dreamreal I know you have like some kind of mental block that says you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever look at your premises and say "you know, the other guy might have a point, I'm carrying this on past the point of absurdity" so just make the decision that everyone else is wrong but you're going to have some grace and just sit in your superiority for a while in silence
146. 12:58 dreamreal in beit hillel and beit shammai you'd never accept the other to be considered as a viable alternative, whichever one you ended up in
147. 12:58 dreamreal but this is not a good way to be
148. 13:12 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #43: Production deployment: Docker Compose, reverse proxy, MTA, and documentation - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/43
149. 14:24 dreamreal so just to clarify: #41 actually addresses global and per-channel defaults for operations. I haven't decided on a default for karma, specifically, yet, for reasons;
150. 14:24 dreamreal 1. It's not all that important
151. 14:25 dreamreal 2. the space separator actually does break a normal interaction. If I use tab completion *at the front of a line* I get a rational separator, and that separator gets discarded properly:
152. 14:25 dreamreal dreamreal: ++
153. 14:25 dreamreal however, if I hit tab *in a line* the separator does not show up:
154. 14:26 dreamreal dummies like dreamreal -- they are stupid [note: I used tab completion for my nick here]
155. 14:26 nevet dummies like dreamreal now has karma of -1.
156. 14:26 dreamreal note: that's INTENDED to be a karma operation! And it is! But the flag would disable that.
157. 14:28 dreamreal (the reason my first karma operation didn't register is because my nick is intentionally ignored as a subject. "Dummies like dreamreal" is not a direct match, so it's not ignored.)
158. 14:37 dreamreal so issue 41 has a lot of configuration in it: system configuration for super-admins, oepration-level controls like "enable karma" and defaults (including, BTW, the emdash thing as an acceptance test), *and* operational controls at the provenance level, so you can control it for specific channels. A global configuration could be different than a channel configuration.
159. 14:42 blue 15:26 < dreamreal> dummies like dreamreal DASHDASH they are stupid [note: I used tab completion for my nick here]
160. 14:42 blue this is EXACTLY the point of contention RIGHT THERE
161. 14:42 blue I did NOT parse that sentence mentally as a karma operation DASHDASH but as a normal sentence
162. 14:42 dreamreal Sure. You didn't. You're not the bot.
163. 14:43 blue yes, and the bot's interpretation is unnatural and dumb
164. 14:43 blue ask ANYONE and he'd that you that's a normal sentence DASHDASH not a karma operation
165. 14:43 dreamreal I get it. Struggling to care, because it's a bot. It's not supposed to be natural.
166. 14:44 blue that's not an argument. it's not supposed to be natural, it's supposed to be useful
167. 14:44 dreamreal Dude, with all due respect, you do not want to say that. I've been on IRC for nearly 30 years.
168. 14:44 blue and ME since 95!
169. 14:44 blue that's basically the same amoutn of time. you're not gonna get me on argument from authority here
170. 14:45 Chronos I'm one of the dummies too, and know that is 1/2 the battle!
171. 14:45 dreamreal So you know the danger of selection. DOn't make that dare. You're saying "you can't find people to validate the behavior you just said you can validate through usage" and, uh, I can indeed validate that behavior through usage, which is why I made the assertion in the first place. You've made your point. You seem to be struggling to accept that others disagree even though you made your point
172. 14:45 dreamreal successfully.
173. 14:45 dreamreal You are being an asshat. Please stop.
174. 14:45 blue I'm not, but I'm gonna drop it not because I think I should, but because you're forcing me, note that
175. 14:46 dreamreal I'm definitely putting it up on my quotes board.
176. 14:47 Chronos Personal anecdote: I've seen lots of IRC bots support the concept of karma, but have never, ever found the karma feature useful in any of them.
177. 14:47 Chronos Therefore, I'm not sure the current subject matters. ;)
178. 14:48 blue I don't find it that useful either. In my personal experience, karma should be indirect anyway, by using ^ following the person you agree with
179. 14:48 blue that doesn't allow for karma for concepts, but who cares. the whole idea of hindu karma is about living beings, not concepts, anyway
180. 14:48 Chronos I guess it could be useful for determining things like, "Which of these two good options has the highest karma?" Check the karma of both, and off you go?
181. 14:49 blue yeah, except no one ever did that... looked up the karma value of two things on irc to determine a course of action
182. 14:49 blue however: karma for people could be interesting to map out the territory in a new channel
183. 14:49 Chronos I've never seen anyone do that either, though perhaps they queried the bot directly, rather than doing it in a main channel.
184. 14:49 blue it could indicate a matrix of acceptance/approval/merit that transcends ophood
185. 14:50 blue DASHDASH is useful
186. 14:50 blue in which case, it would be useful, because people on irc sometimes abuse ophood to argue from authority
187. 14:51 Chronos dreamreal: Is nevet intended as a "general purpose" IRC bot? Or is it more specific to Java specifically? Or computer programming languages?
188. 14:55 dreamreal it's for information systems. It's leaning towards programming because its users and authors tend to be programmers - thus the factoid systems have things like "urls" and "maven coordinates" as primary aspects. #java and javabot (and purl, from #perl, #python, and others) were primary inspirations.
189. 14:56 dreamreal but purl and javabot are literally designed as infobots, and I see "infobot" as a second-order consequence.
190. 14:56 Chronos Actually, hmmm... I would say the way karma currently works is actually somewhat incompatible with channels whose topic is programming languages, since the increment and decrement operators are somewhat common.
191. 14:56 Chronos For example, you might show some example code: for (int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { /* do something */ }
192. 14:56 nevet For example, you might show some example code: for (int i = 0; i < 100; i now has karma of 1.
193. 14:57 Chronos For example, you might show some example code: for (int i = 0; i < 100; i--
194. 14:57 nevet For example, you might show some example code: for (int i = 0; i < 100; i has neutral karma.
195. 14:57 Chronos (Just doing some clean up there.)
196. 14:57 dreamreal karma, in this case, is a toy. And karma's been around in programming channels since the very early days of purl; yes, there are misfires like that. but since IRC isn't a conversation that *can be interrupted* it's generally been seen as an artifact and not something that really matters; you might as well complain that you're knee-deep in conversation when someone joins or parts a channel.
197. 14:57 dreamreal Don't bother cleaning up, there's no need.
198. 14:57 dreamreal karma records are not *expensive* in any sense of the word.
199. 14:58 blue (except you can filter out parts/joins)
200. 14:58 dreamreal blue: okay, fine. Let's pretend you're not being officious: let's ignore parts and joins and splits; how about someone joins INVISIBLY and says "hi all, how's it going" in the middle of a conversation.
201. 14:58 Chronos Joins and parts are one of my pet peeves about IRC, because they're so frequent (almost amount to spam). Fortunately, my IRC client "collapses" all joins and parts.
202. 14:59 blue dreamreal: then that's a USEFUL tidbit of info. you've failed to demonstrate how that bot reaction is useful in any universe
203. 14:59 dreamreal Oddly enough, blue, you just interrupted an exchange taking place between chronos and me - are you not offended at yourself?
204. 14:59 blue nope
205. 14:59 blue you're equating horses to donkeys
206. 14:59 dreamreal By your own metric you should be, donkey.
207. 15:00 Chronos I don't like outright filtering out joins and parts, because I don't like talking to people that have parted. So I typically ignore the collapsed joins/parts when "just browsing" a channel conversation, and pay more attention to them when I'm actively participating in a channel.
208. 15:00 blue the bot repeating that isn't doing anything useful, by any metric
209. 15:00 dreamreal A lot of that is just an artifact of being on IRC.
210. 15:01 dreamreal humans learn how it works, they adjust IT or what they expect, we all somehow survive, not being incinerated by information like four lines of joins/parts, or - as known in the bad old days when connectivity was apparently over a phone line over the atlantic - 50 lines of joins/parts.
211. 15:02 blue I feel at this point you've looking for reasons to justify this, and I'm not gonna change my mind, so this is going to be one of the sad rare moments we'll have to do the dumb modern thing of agreeing to disagree
212. 15:03 dreamreal TBH I don't even understand what the problem is: the issue exists, I'm going to address the behavior, you're still talking about it.
213. 15:03 * Chronos wishes IRC wasn't (still) "constant connection oriented," but totally understands why it (still) is.
214. 15:03 blue so will it be possible to deactivate it for an entire discord server, dreamreal?
215. 15:03 dreamreal Chronos: slack is right there, buddy :D
216. 15:03 blue and who will control that, the server admin?
217. 15:04 Chronos dreamreal: Heh! I do use Discord, but I'm under no illusion that it won't keep walking down the enshittification path.
218. 15:04 blue that's impossible, Chronos
219. 15:04 blue discord was already created in a state of absolute debauchery
220. 15:04 Chronos Heh.
221. 15:04 dreamreal blue: I doubt it, because of the nature of discord connections: it's not "a discord server," it's discord. It might fall out of the provenance stuff, which is built off of URLs: I just haven't tried it yet.
222. 15:05 Chronos I'm a (happy) IRCCloud subscriber, which solves a lot (not all) of the "constant connection oriented" design.
223. 15:05 blue so how would I disable it for my entire disocrd server + one channel here? run my own nevet? that was what I was trying to avoid, also the code isn't open source atm
224. 15:05 dreamreal It'll be controlled by admins; there're multiple levels of admins, but operations would be admins. The admins are NOT by provenance though.
225. 15:05 * Chronos is one of those rare people that doesn't mind paying for stuff (gasp!)
226. 15:05 blue ya I don't mind paying for nevet either
227. 15:06 blue it if creates value, why not
228. 15:06 dreamreal blue: that's the thing; discord doesn't HAVE servers
229. 15:06 dreamreal it has guilds
230. 15:06 blue MEIN GOTT
231. 15:06 dreamreal you connect TO discord and get the guilds
232. 15:06 blue it's the same thing, NO ONE SAYS gilds
233. 15:06 blue it's just hteir dumb technical docs use guild_id
234. 15:06 blue but it's a discord server, in universal parlance
235. 15:07 Chronos blue: The recent ID / face scan stuff from Discord was a "good reminder" for a lot of people.
236. 15:07 dreamreal Right. I know what you mean, and I'm describing WHY it's possibly (POSSIBLY) difficult - it may fall out of the provenance mechanism, but I haven't tried it. We don't have "connect to this, and tha, and the other" in discord.
237. 15:07 dreamreal in IRC we do, in SLACK we do.
238. 15:07 blue Chronos: yes. but also, you do need an id to get into an adult movie theatre, discord is just doing the same...
239. 15:08 blue you also need an id to buy liquor or porn magazines, I never got the argument why those restrictions ought not to apply online
240. 15:09 dreamreal blue: in any event, you're still tilting at windmills: I do not know, because I have not tried, and specifying guilds in provenances is a DRAG, I hate it, and it's a consequence of how discord works
241. 15:09 blue dreamreal: ok use case. I want to use nevet, NOT deploy it on my own, and either disable the karma op entirely for my discord server and irc channel, or just the emdash thingy. will THAT be possible or not? simple yes no
242. 15:10 dreamreal I don't see a reason it ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT work with tiered permissions, but that's just work, and I haven't done it, and nobody's paid me to do it so I'll get to it when I get to it
243. 15:10 dreamreal of course
244. 15:10 dreamreal yes, a thousand times yes, and that's been the case since you raised the issue in the first place and I've said so
245. 15:10 blue because again, #41 talks about "per channel", which means I'd need to configure it for every discord channel on my server
246. 15:10 Chronos blue: I don't really have a problem with the "prove you're an adult to access adult spaces" idea in general, but when it comes to online/tech companies like Discord, I simply don't trust them to keep that kind of sensitive data secure.
247. 15:11 blue alternatively, it talks about "universal", and I'm not a nevet admin
248. 15:11 Chronos I'm not sure how many more hacks need to happen for people to understand they should never, ever share that kind of sensitive data, unless access is absolutely required.
249. 15:11 dreamreal blue: nevet isn't a PAAS :D
250. 15:12 blue Chronos: so incidentally, I had this conversation in another channel with other people. the concern was the same -- why should we provide our ids to some online shady illicit websites
251. 15:12 nevet Chronos: so incidentally, I had this conversation in another channel with other people. the concern was the same now has karma of -1.
252. 15:12 Chronos blue: When I go to the liquor store, an employee briefly glances at my ID — the details aren't stored on some computer system that can and will get hacked, eventually.
253. 15:13 Chronos never is a bot that works for both IRC and Discord?
254. 15:13 blue my idea was that you could purchase offline an gift card, in cash if you care, and then use it online
255. 15:14 blue a gift card*
256. 15:14 dreamreal Chronos: yes, it is connected right now to slack, discord, and irc
257. 15:14 Chronos blue: In a nutshell: It's a security issue. It's simply not a good idea to share an ID or face scan with Discord, because it's not safe or secure, no matter how much BS they spew about it being safe.
258. 15:14 dreamreal and has a bridge set up to mirror a channel between irc and discord (post something on one, the other one gets the same content)
259. 15:14 blue Chronos: yes, and my idea avoids that
260. 15:17 dreamreal Chronos: nevet means "stream" and it's designed to be a multifaceted consumer and producer of information
261. 15:19 dreamreal agh, blue is correcting my craptastic hebrew: "sprout"
262. 15:21 Chronos s/never/nevet/
263. 15:22 Chronos blue: I'm somewhat confident The Powers That Be could "put together" the data points on that path and still expose your identity.
264. 15:22 dreamreal blue: #41 has been updated to capture specialization of configuration, so now if you can specify the guild for discord you can in fact generalize configurations across guilds
265. 15:23 dreamreal it's not coded yet (again, volunteer here) but the feature's captured
266. 15:23 Chronos It's fine with me if some people want to take the risk. For me, the answer is easy: I won't share my ID or face scan. If that means I'm limited to the spaces I can talk — or even limited to IRC — so be it.
267. 15:23 dreamreal largely because when it was expressed it wasn't issued from on high
268. 15:23 Chronos dreamreal: Oh, very neat. Did you write nevet?
269. 15:23 dreamreal yes
270. 15:24 dreamreal thus the github for it is jottinger/bytecode.news :D
271. 15:24 Chronos Very neat. I like the idea of being able to link disparate chat systems as well.
272. 15:24 blue yes, that was my idea
273. 15:24 dreamreal the mirroring was, yes
274. 15:24 Chronos dreamreal: Nice! :)
275. 15:25 dreamreal nevet's initial design was ALWAYS to connect to discord, irc, slack, mattermost, matrix, etc. etc., anything I could connect it to
276. 15:25 Chronos Kind of like the bot version of Pidgin
277. 15:25 dreamreal mattermost and matrix are still "todo" - I only have one mattermost connection and there's no way nevet will legally be allowed to connect to it
278. 15:25 dreamreal yes, very much, although the point of nevet is information capture and not actual communication
279. 15:26 dreamreal one of the previous versions' features was "summarize what's been going on" via AI
280. 15:26 blue I'm an early adopter, I have nevet serving at one of my projects
281. 15:26 dreamreal it didn't analyze anything without being asked to, but the idea was that it would go back 100 lines on a given information stream, time delimited, and say "oh, man, that chronos guy is going OFF on how much he really likes ponies these days"
282. 15:27 blue once it can reliably do github via webhooks, I'm gonna turn off the built-in discord thingy for that and replace with nevet's
283. 15:27 Chronos dreamreal: Information capture? You're one of them! You're working for The Man! ;)
284. 15:27 blue then I would get my lifelong dream of informing both irc and discord at the same time
285. 15:27 dreamreal blue: incidentally, when I'm not fending off peoples' ridiculous requests via karma, I'm working on spinning up the UI - which is the MAIN blocker for github webhooks
286. 15:27 Chronos ponies++ Ponies are awesome!
287. 15:27 nevet ponies now has karma of 1.
288. 15:28 dreamreal once the UI's up, webhooks get a lot easier
289. 15:28 blue wait what
290. 15:28 dreamreal Chronos: for the record, I work for the man for real
291. 15:28 blue in what universe is the UI related to endpoints
292. 15:28 Chronos dreamreal: What are you using for the UI? If you don't mind saying.
293. 15:28 Chronos dreamreal: Given the owners of the company I work for, I probably do too, just indirectly.
294. 15:29 dreamreal blue: webhooks require exposed endpoints. The UI = exposed endpoints. nevet as it's deployed RIGHT NOW exposes NOTHING to the outside world outside of the connections it's using.
295. 15:29 blue I fear we have a massively disparate conception of UI
296. 15:29 dreamreal Chronos: kinabalu wrote a UI in next.js, probably with claude or perplexity :D
297. 15:29 blue yes and it SUCKS
298. 15:29 blue obviously he should taken something else! not saying what
299. 15:29 dreamreal blue: "the ui" in this case is the blog. Right now as deployed, nevet exposes NO ports to incoming traffic.
300. 15:29 dreamreal blue: well, it's open source, you're welcome to contribute better... the endpoints are documented.
301. 15:30 blue if I send you a primate PR, you'll merge it? where would I put it?
302. 15:30 blue there's currently just 'frontend' and it's that nextjs app
303. 15:31 Chronos dreamreal: Ah, neat. (I'm not personally anti-AI, so I have no problem with AI generated code — as long as it's been properly reviewed, of course.)
304. 15:31 dreamreal Chronos: I just want the UI to work
305. 15:31 Chronos "primate PR" — love it! :)
306. 15:32 dreamreal blue: Hell, put it in primate-frontend. But I need to get the frontend deployed, first, because that means the basic services the front end NEEDS work. The goal is to have nextjs.bytecode.news, primate.bytecode.news, react.bytecode.news, struts.bytecode.news ... and bytecode.news routes to whichever one happens to be best.
307. 15:33 blue k, I'll see what I can do. you just need a blog for now?
308. 15:33 dreamreal That way, if ANYONE goes "hey, I know wicket really well, why isn't the front end in wicket" they can write one in wicket and have a 1:1 comparison point.
309. 15:33 dreamreal The goal is to support service-blog, yes.
310. 15:33 Chronos Oh, I thought "primate PR" was a joke about it being a PR made by a person rather than an AI — did I interpret that wrong?
311. 15:33 dreamreal ~primate
312. 15:33 dreamreal primate
313. 15:33 dreamreal grrr
314. 15:33 dreamreal factoids got reset, hold on
315. 15:34 Chronos I still have a pretty big factoids DB from when I was an op in EFNet #c in the 1990s and running channel bots :)
316. 15:35 dreamreal primate=<reply>Primate is an opinionated, largely language-neutral web framework. It supports multiple front ends, backends, and runtimes, with a tendency towards to the javascript ecosystem.
317. 15:35 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated primate.
318. 15:35 dreamreal primate.url=https://primate.run/
319. 15:35 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated primate.
320. 15:35 dreamreal primate.seealso=react,angular,vue,svelte,javascript,typescript,webassembly
321. 15:35 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated primate.
322. 15:35 dreamreal primate
323. 15:35 nevet Primate is an opinionated, largely language-neutral web framework. It supports multiple front ends, backends, and runtimes, with a tendency towards to the javascript ecosystem. URL: https://primate.run/ See also: react, angular, vue, svelte, javascript, typescript, and webassembly
324. 15:36 dreamreal react=<reply>React is a typescript web crap thingamabob that dreamreal avoids like the plague because it's UI.
325. 15:36 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated react.
326. 15:36 dreamreal primate
327. 15:36 nevet Primate is an opinionated, largely language-neutral web framework. It supports multiple front ends, backends, and runtimes, with a tendency towards to the javascript ecosystem. URL: https://primate.run/ See also: react, angular, vue, svelte, javascript, typescript, and webassembly
328. 15:36 dreamreal hmm.
329. 15:36 dreamreal I think we finded a bug!
330. 15:37 dreamreal Chronos: if you have an old DB of factoids, I'd be happy to migrate useful bits out
331. 15:37 dreamreal (It's supposed to show "~react" there because it's an existing factoid, in teh seealso section.)
332. 15:37 Chronos Awww. And here I thought "primate PR" was so clever!
333. 15:38 dreamreal :D
334. 15:38 Chronos dreamreal: The old EFNet #c factoid DB is... low quality... but I can dig it up
335. 15:39 dreamreal it may not be worth it, plus it's C
336. 15:39 blue Chronos: Primate is my framework, I'm the author
337. 15:39 Chronos And, oh my goodness, was maintaining a big EFNet channel in the 1990s+ difficult. EFNet never did give us proper tools for channel administration.
338. 15:39 dreamreal foo
339. 15:39 blue I just usually don't capitalise its name when I talk about it
340. 15:39 dreamreal foo=bar
341. 15:39 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated foo.
342. 15:39 Chronos blue: Oh, neat!
343. 15:39 dreamreal foo.seealso=baz
344. 15:39 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated foo.
345. 15:39 dreamreal baz=bletch
346. 15:39 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated baz.
347. 15:39 dreamreal foo
348. 15:39 nevet foo is bar. See also: baz
349. 15:40 dreamreal foo.seealso=baz,quux
350. 15:40 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated foo.
351. 15:40 dreamreal foo
352. 15:40 nevet foo is bar. See also: baz and quux
353. 15:41 blue I honestly have no idea what he did there with nextjs... it's sending requests to the actual backend from the frontend? that seems awfully ineffective
354. 15:41 dreamreal That's supposed to be "~baz and quux"
355. 15:41 dreamreal blue: he probably had perplexity or claude do it
356. 15:41 blue I'm just gonna pretend I didn't see that code and ask you what you expect of a UI, dreamreal
357. 15:41 blue because I feel that code is a dumpster fire
358. 15:41 dreamreal I dunno, you UI people are ridiculous and bonkers, I just wants it to work
359. 15:41 blue beyond being in nextjs, that is
360. 15:41 dreamreal blue: I'd ignore the code, the endpoints are documented (and there's openapi generated for it too)
361. 15:42 blue alrighty. for your information, I'm likely to proxy it to /api or so
362. 15:42 dreamreal don't care as long as I know how to deploy it
363. 15:42 blue that is generally of no concern of yours, but it allows the actual backend to not be hardcoded into the frontend paths
364. 15:43 dreamreal If you have a requirement that changes service-blog, that's fine too, I just need to know and teh documentation HAS to be kept up to date
365. 15:43 dreamreal this is a new API, so it's not expected to be hardened yet
366. 15:43 blue I'm not gonna touch the openapi def just work against it. if it changes, it changes
367. 15:43 blue I'll probably version it though
368. 15:44 blue that would be nice, would it not?
369. 15:44 dreamreal I'm just saying if you find holes, that's not going to surprise or offend me
370. 15:44 dreamreal depends on how: if you're going to version it, it'd be mapped as a selector
371. 15:44 blue do you have a /version or so?
372. 15:44 dreamreal as a concept, I'm fine
373. 15:44 dreamreal no
374. 15:44 blue nvm, I'll look it up myself
375. 15:44 blue might be a case of YAGNI
376. 15:45 blue https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/blob/main/docs/api-reference.md
377. 15:45 blue this is all I need to know?
378. 15:45 dreamreal if we version the endpoint, it's going to be with header versioning
379. 15:46 dreamreal that doc is supposed to be, yeah
380. 15:46 blue k
381. 15:55 blue dreamreal: where is the openapi yaml/json?
382. 15:56 dreamreal It's generated live on deployment, I don't store it, I need to do that, huh
383. 16:04 blue j
384. 16:04 blue k*
385. 16:04 blue well, it's time to revive the openapi module, dreamreal
386. 16:04 dreamreal revive...?
387. 16:04 dreamreal openapi is baked in, it just doesn't generate an artifact, because openapi is dumb
388. 16:05 blue yes. I never really finished it. the idea is to do `npx primate openapi defile.yaml --target=python`, and it generates you a client in the target language. default would be TS
389. 16:05 nevet yes. I never really finished it. the idea is to do `npx primate openapi defile.yaml now has karma of -1.
390. 16:05 blue deffile.yaml*
391. 16:06 dreamreal yeah. kinabalu actually has some code somewhere that generates the openapi artifact as part of test output, that's actually really useful and I need to integrate it.
392. 16:07 blue the client would be generally typed. so client.posts.year(...).month(...).slug(...).comments.get()
393. 16:08 blue -> would call `GET /posts/{year}/{month}/{slug}/comments` using the bearer token the client was init'd with
394. 16:08 blue depending on the openapi yaml, path params can be typed (numbers). that would be translated to a type in the target language, if the language is typed, that is
395. 16:08 blue I mean number | string | array, etc.
396. 16:09 blue I imagine that since java is typed, the openapi def would include that
397. 16:09 blue and we can actually runtime-verify it in TS, which is superneat
398. 16:11 dreamreal *nod*
399. 16:12 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #44: Factoid see-also summary does not decorate known factoids with ~ - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/44
400. 16:20 * blue checks if kotlin has a wasm target
401. 16:21 blue oh wow, it even has wasi, that's sweet
402. 16:21 dreamreal i's an utter drag to work with, though
403. 16:22 blue needs gradle?
404. 16:22 blue that's fine by me
405. 16:23 dreamreal no, the runtime libraries are different
406. 16:23 blue apparently they have a node and deno examples
407. 16:23 blue s/a//
408. 16:23 dreamreal I use kotlin in the JVM so I have the full JVM ecosystem - the multiplatform kotlin stuff can't rely on the JVM, so there's a whole OTHER platform-neutral library ecosystem
409. 16:24 blue dreamreal: btw: a sed operation in nevet would be awesome
410. 16:24 blue ah, gotcha
411. 16:32 dreamreal sed would be easy, too, file an issue, but mein Gott is it noisy :D
412. 16:32 dreamreal hmm, maybe that's another thing: a throttle
413. 16:33 dreamreal running a test now to work out the factoid fix AND store openapi output in the repo
414. 16:35 dreamreal heh, year, month, date are strings in the open api :D
415. 16:35 dreamreal I know why, but it's still funny
416. 16:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #45: Fixing factoid expression and adding openapi artifact - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/45
417. 16:38 * nevet joined #nevet
418. 16:38 * dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
419. 16:38 dreamreal foo
420. 16:38 nevet foo is bar. See also: ~baz and quux
421. 16:38 dreamreal Working!
422. 16:38 dreamreal baz
423. 16:38 nevet baz is bletch.
424. 16:38 dreamreal quux
425. 16:38 dreamreal perfect.
426. 16:38 dreamreal foo.forget
427. 16:38 nevet ok, forgot foo.
428. 16:38 dreamreal baz.forget
429. 16:38 nevet ok, forgot baz.
430. 16:38 dreamreal quux.forget
431. 16:39 dreamreal blue: main now has docs/openapi.json
432. 16:42 blue thank you!
433. 16:42 dreamreal the guy who wrote the nextjs frontend showed the way :D
434. 16:43 blue this is REALLY nice: schema: { type: string, format: uuid }
435. 16:43 blue this means the generated client can *runtime-verify* that the given param is a valid uuid
436. 16:44 blue the server will obviously also have its json parsing, but this should fail early
437. 16:44 dreamreal uuidv7 internally, too, BTW
438. 16:45 blue yeah, technically this isn't ocmmunicatable via openapi I think
439. 16:45 blue the validation will be against a common subset of v4 and v7
440. 16:45 blue they're very similar, anyway
441. 16:46 blue they differ mostly in how values are created -- not their format
442. 16:46 nevet they differ mostly in how values are created now has karma of -1.
443. 16:46 dreamreal yeah, that's why I said internally :D you can't examine a uuidv4 and v7 and tell them apart without knowing their relationship
444. 16:46 blue the only difference is the 13th character: it's 4 respectively 7
445. 16:46 blue dreamreal: you can, as I just said
446. 16:46 blue the 13th character is set
447. 16:47 dreamreal Is it? oh, nice
448. 16:47 blue v4: e4ddfa5d-f953-42a9-8f38-f58f59569e87
449. 16:47 blue v7: e4ddfa5d-f953-72a9-8f38-f58f59569e87
450. 16:47 dreamreal I don't pay attentin to the crap you say!
451. 16:47 dreamreal but yeah, I guess that makes sense
452. 16:47 blue so to validate both, you need to allow 4|7 for the 14th character
453. 16:47 dreamreal not really relevant for downstream uses, though, I don't think nevet accepts external UUIDs to be generated
454. 16:48 blue it's not about accepting, it's about verifying it before it goes out to nevet. if it's not a valid uuid, there's no reason to send the request
455. 16:48 dreamreal *nod*
456. 17:14 blue dreamreal: I still got the openapi collection running, e.g.: https://openapi.primate.run/spec/anthropic.json
457. 17:14 blue I'm gonna add nevet.json.. or maybe I'll call it bytenews.json ?
458. 17:15 dreamreal bytecode.news is the codebase, nevet's just one instance
459. 17:15 blue how would you generalyl call the openapi def file?
460. 17:15 dreamreal What do you mean? Like, at what URL would it be exposed in a running instance?
461. 17:16 blue there's quite a few of them:
462. 17:16 blue https://openapi.primate.run/manifest.json
463. 17:16 dreamreal ${servername}/v3/api-docs is the endpoint that's exposed
464. 17:16 blue I want to add an entry for your stuff
465. 17:16 blue I'm just looking for a proper name for it
466. 17:16 dreamreal I'd call it bytecodenews if it can't handle a period, or bytecode-news
467. 17:17 blue it's generally quoted, so dot would be ok. I can also just simply call it after the github repo name, so jottinger/bytecode.news.json
468. 17:17 dreamreal *nod*
469. 17:19 blue hm
470. 17:20 blue do you intend to open the repo at some point? I just realised this isn't gonna work with a private repo. I might need to put in the file manually
471. 17:20 dreamreal Probably; streampack is, I guess I was thinking I'd make sure this was more hardened than it is before I opened it up
472. 17:21 blue I can hardcode it for now
473. 17:21 dreamreal the log sanitization has already been put in, and that was a pretty big aspect of that
474. 17:22 dreamreal but I need to make sure the rest of it's good too
475. 17:24 blue heh: (node:149949) [TAG_RESOLVE_FAILED] YAMLWarning: Unresolved tag: tag:yaml.org,2002:float at line 21392, column 28:
476. 17:24 blue (this is unrelated to your openapi, it's someone else's)
477. 17:36 dreamreal I'm working on the deployment stuff, so you will eventually be able to spin up a local instance with docker compose with working backend and db
478. 17:36 dreamreal the front ends will be deployed in docker, too, eventually
479. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #51: Deployment guide documentation - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/51
480. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #50: Nginx config examples for multi-frontend deployment - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/50
481. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #49: Backend Dockerfile and docker-compose service - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/49
482. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #48: Frontend Dockerfile and docker-compose service - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/48
483. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #47: Externalize Next.js API rewrite target - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/47
484. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #46: Externalize CORS allowed origins to env var - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/46
485. 17:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #52: Updating CORS - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/52
486. 17:42 dreamreal ~glot.io.url=https://glot.io/new/java
487. 17:42 dreamreal glot.io.url=https://glot.io/new/java
488. 17:42 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated glot.io.
489. 17:42 dreamreal glot.io
490. 17:42 nevet URL: https://glot.io/new/java
491. 17:42 dreamreal ideone.url=https://ideone.com/
492. 17:42 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated ideone.
493. 17:42 dreamreal ideone.seealso=glot.io
494. 17:42 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated ideone.
495. 17:42 dreamreal glot.io.seealso=ideone
496. 17:42 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated glot.io.
497. 17:42 dreamreal glot.io
498. 17:42 nevet URL: https://glot.io/new/java See also: ~ideone
499. 17:43 dreamreal glot.io=an online code runner, much like a simple IDE, useful for demonstrating simple code.
500. 17:43 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated glot.io.
501. 17:43 dreamreal ideone=an online code runner, much like a very simple IDE, useful for demonstrating simple java code.
502. 17:43 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated ideone.
503. 17:43 dreamreal glot.io
504. 17:43 nevet glot.io is an online code runner, much like a simple IDE, useful for demonstrating simple code. URL: https://glot.io/new/java See also: ~ideone
505. 17:44 dreamreal Chronos: ^^^
506. 17:44 dreamreal Chronos: compare this to how javabot does it :D
507. 17:44 dreamreal it's more verbose but MUCH better targeted
508. 17:46 dreamreal ...and since nevet isn't tied to IRC, if you were talking to it over slack or discord, you can now do !glot.io and get the factoid
509. 17:46 dreamreal factoid search runner
510. 17:46 dreamreal hmm, I need to remember how to do the searches
511. 17:47 dreamreal search runner
512. 17:47 nevet Search for 'runner' matched: ~glot.io and ~ideone
513. 17:47 dreamreal well, THAT was simple :D
514. 17:48 dreamreal search ide
515. 17:48 nevet Search for 'ide' matched: ~glot.io, ~ideone, and ~pep 3
516. 17:49 dreamreal idea=<reply>IDEA is one of the "big two" Java IDEs, and probably the most popular of them. Has a free and commercial edition, and has capability to work for many, many, MANY languages.
517. 17:49 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated idea.
518. 17:50 dreamreal eclipse=<reply>Eclipse is one of the "big two" java IDEs, and is generally free, although there are commercial variants. Built on OSGi, it's got an incredibly large ecosystem.
519. 17:50 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated eclipse.
520. 17:50 dreamreal idea.seealso=ide,eclipse
521. 17:50 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated idea.
522. 17:50 dreamreal eclipse.seealso=idea,ide
523. 17:50 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated eclipse.
524. 17:51 dreamreal idea.url=https://jetbrains.com/idea
525. 17:51 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated idea.
526. 17:51 dreamreal eclipse.url=https://eclipseide.org/
527. 17:51 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated eclipse.
528. 17:52 dreamreal netbeans.url=https://netbeans.apache.org/
529. 17:52 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated netbeans.
530. 17:52 dreamreal netbeans.seealso=ide,eclipse,idea
531. 17:52 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated netbeans.
532. 17:53 dreamreal netbeans=generally the redheaded stepchild of IDEs for Java, now managed by apache since no-one else was willing to adopt it. Capable but an also-ran.
533. 17:53 nevet ok, dreamreal: updated netbeans.
534. 17:53 dreamreal netbeans
535. 17:53 nevet netbeans is generally the redheaded stepchild of IDEs for Java, now managed by apache since no-one else was willing to adopt it. Capable but an also-ran. URL: https://netbeans.apache.org/ See also: ide, ~eclipse, and ~idea
536. 18:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #54: Updating docker-compose for development porpoises - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/54
537. 18:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #53: Fixing Next.JS base url - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/53
538. 18:49 dreamreal lots of fixes so far today, none too far reaching but they're important
539. 18:57 blue dreamreal: `client.posts.year(2020).month(1).slug("hi").comments.get();`
540. 18:58 blue that's the shape in TS. year and month will unfortunately be verified as strings. what type are they in the kotlin code?
541. 18:59 blue I expected "number" in the openapi... but it's "string"
542. 19:02 blue where is the path mapping located in the code, could you point me to it?
543. 19:03 dreamreal https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/blob/69dda17cd6e4188bc16371bb4c4c8cf26e17efa6/service-blog/src/main/kotlin/com/enigmastation/streampack/blog/controller/PostController.kt#L79
544. 19:03 blue ah
545. 19:03 blue service-blog/src/main/kotlin/com/enigmastation/streampack/blog/controller/PostController.kt: @GetMapping("/posts/{year}/{month}/{slug}")
546. 19:04 blue ya, thx
547. 19:04 dreamreal This API is very raw and very new so if we need to adjust it we can
548. 19:04 dreamreal I'm not opposed to migrating that to a proper numeric type
549. 19:04 dreamreal and honestly... where's the day
550. 19:05 blue yes. personal take: make year, month and day numeric.
551. 19:05 blue my openapi client will benefit from it
552. 19:05 dreamreal hold on, investigating
553. 19:06 blue I'm fine with Int. the outputter will likely make a javascript `number` of it, which is fine. openapi v3 technically has a min-max thingy, which years and particularly months and days could immensely benefit from
554. 19:07 blue months should definitely be min 1 max 12
555. 19:07 dreamreal hold on, still investigating impact
556. 19:07 blue depending on how kotlin parses Int, you could still accept 01
557. 19:07 blue or a bespoke type, would be perfect
558. 19:08 dreamreal give me a few minutes, yeesh
559. 19:08 dreamreal I can have this fixed real soon but I need to make sure the impact is managed
560. 19:08 blue it's not my fault you're SLOW!
561. 19:09 blue (to anyone else: this is in jest. dreamreal often prides himself on reading super fast, and will expect me to finish reading things he wrote within quantum time)
562. 19:10 dreamreal I'm almost done, JACK HOLE
563. 19:10 blue clock's tickin
564. 19:10 dreamreal compiling for tests now, and need to do a full compile to regen the openapi endpoints too
565. 19:10 dreamreal but that's a good catch
566. 19:11 dreamreal I noticed it earlier but it's UI-related so I didn't REALLY care, but I figured if it was significant enough someone else would pipe up and tell me to care
567. 19:11 blue I AM that someone
568. 19:11 dreamreal yes
569. 19:11 blue looking like I'm snugging in into the shammai role here
570. 19:12 dreamreal You've definitely never left the shammai role, except shammai at least tried to understand hillel some
571. 19:12 blue go on. tell me that every bride is pretty on her wedding day EVEN IF SHE'S UGLY
572. 19:12 blue have me roll my eyes
573. 19:13 dreamreal It's one thing to pretend reality is malleable, it's another thing altogether, and a negative one, to bother SAYING "you know she's a troll, right?"
574. 19:13 blue oh, that's below me
575. 19:14 blue I'll still have that thought, likely. which is probably just as bad, thoug
576. 19:14 blue though*
577. 19:14 dreamreal yes, and that's the point hillel was making
578. 19:15 blue yes
579. 19:16 dreamreal okay, main is updated, as is the openapi spec
580. 19:18 blue SWEET
581. 19:18 dreamreal earliest publication year is set to 2007, because I'm thinking I might migrate some old articles over from the java channel blog
582. 19:19 dreamreal and if this is still running in the year 3000CE I'll take the maintenance hit of updating the schema
583. 19:20 dreamreal "great-great-great-great... something grandpa has had us running that VPS for freaking *centuries*."
584. 19:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #57: Multi-site blog hosting: shared infrastructure, per-site content - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/57
585. 19:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #55: Use integral types for year/month path variables in blog endpoints - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/55
586. 19:38 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #56: Updating blog endpoints to provide proper types for slugs - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/56
587. 20:08 blue @Schema(minimum = "2007", maximum = "3000") year: Int,
588. 20:08 blue sweet tuches!
589. 20:08 blue nice, the openapi exporter got it too:
590. 20:09 blue { type: "integer", format: "int32", maximum: 3000, minimum: 2007 }
591. 20:09 blue dreamreal: you know what this means, right?
592. 20:09 blue it means I can translate this to a pema schema, so we get REAL runtime-validation!
593. 20:09 blue -> p.i32.min(2007).max(3000)
594. 20:11 blue now a client tries to do this: client.posts(2006). BAM, we error out even BEFORE we continue!
595. 20:11 blue actually client.posts.year(2006), but you get the point
596. 20:12 blue client gets ParseError: value should be minimum 2007, got 2006
597. 20:12 blue *no request goes to server*
598. 20:28 dreamreal yeah, for all 4 requests that prevents :D
599. 20:29 dreamreal blue: did you see 57?
600. 20:58 * jreicher joined #nevet
601. 21:02 blue dreamreal: not yet. I'm formulating a proposal for the openapi client for primate. will do shortly
602. 21:20 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #58: fix/55 integral types for blog slugs - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/58
603. 21:20 * nevet joined #nevet
604. 21:20 * dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack