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#nevet

1. 00:01 blue ironically the reason I'm doing it is that the best package manager I've come so far is actually not on linux, but on mac. but brew on linux is a dumpster fire
2. 00:01 blue come across*
3. 00:03 blue dreamreal: https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/80
4. 00:04 blue this is kinda cool. when I was working on my irc bot, I had something similar for gh messages
5. 01:57 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #82: ProvenanceState: per-provenance runtime state store - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/82
6. 01:57 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #84: 21 matches! - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/84
7. 01:57 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #83: Adding provenancestate to allow data storage by provenance - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/83
8. 01:57 dreamreal 21 matches
9. 01:57 nevet A new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
10. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 3
11. 01:58 nevet Now things get interesting. With surgical precision, I take 1. There are 17 matches remaining.
12. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 2
13. 01:58 nevet I see what you're doing there. Without a hint of doubt, I take 2. There are 13 matches remaining.
14. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 1
15. 01:58 nevet Oh, I was hoping you'd do that. Decisively, I take 3. There are 9 matches remaining.
16. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 1
17. 01:58 nevet Interesting move. Having consulted my vast intellect, I take 3. There are 5 matches remaining.
18. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 2
19. 01:58 nevet The plot thickens. Reluctantly, but inevitably, I take 2. The final match awaits you. I believe that makes me the winner.
20. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 2
21. 01:58 nevet Error: No game in progress. Use '21 matches' to start a new game.
22. 01:58 dreamreal 21 matches
23. 01:58 nevet A new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
24. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 3
25. 01:58 nevet Playing it safe, I see. After careful consideration, I take 1. There are 17 matches remaining.
26. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 3
27. 01:58 nevet Noted. With a knowing smile, I take 1. There are 13 matches remaining.
28. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 3
29. 01:58 nevet Oh, I was hoping you'd do that. Without a hint of doubt, I take 1. There are 9 matches remaining.
30. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 3
31. 01:58 nevet You play with conviction. Methodically, I take 1. There are 5 matches remaining.
32. 01:58 dreamreal 21 take 3
33. 01:58 nevet Noted. With a knowing smile, I take 1. That leaves you with the last match -- I win! Better luck next time.
34. 01:58 dreamreal Woot!
35. 01:59 dreamreal I'm actually kinda proud of that.
36. 01:59 dreamreal the game itself is nothing, but the fact that it preserves state as a mechanism for any operation... we now have stateful conditions!
37. 02:11 dreamreal And now the openapi.json should be stable >:(
38. 02:18 dreamreal I still want to refine the flavor text for 21 some - but the game itself was never the point
39. 14:25 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #85: Adds a transformation phase to operations on success - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/85
40. 15:10 bot [jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #86: Adding signal character awareness for egress - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/86
41. 15:11 dreamreal okay, there are still some core issues but they're all heavily reliant on the UI
42. 15:11 dreamreal tag ide
43. 15:11 nevet Factoids tagged 'ide': eclipse, ide, idea, and netbeans
44. 15:11 dreamreal see how the "existing factoids" are now prefixed by the actual signal character :D
45. 15:43 Chronos dreamreal: I forgot to mention that I saw your answer/comment to something I said earlier. I think it caused the lightbulb to illuminate over my head, regarding what nevet is fundamentally about.
46. 15:44 Chronos dreamreal: What AI is it using? If you don't mind saying.
47. 15:45 dreamreal it's using claude. What was the lightbulb?
48. 15:45 dreamreal (It's leveraging spring AI, so if we wanted it to use something else, it's a few lines of configuration.)
49. 15:46 dreamreal See the 21 matches thing? I'm ridiculously happy about it :D
50. 15:46 dreamreal 21 matches
51. 15:46 nevet A new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
52. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 2
53. 15:46 nevet Playing it safe, I see. With great confidence, I take 2. There are 17 matches remaining.
54. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 2
55. 15:46 nevet I see what you're doing there. Reluctantly, but inevitably, I take 2. There are 13 matches remaining.
56. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 2
57. 15:46 nevet The plot thickens. With great confidence, I take 2. There are 9 matches remaining.
58. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 2
59. 15:46 nevet I see what you're doing there. After careful consideration, I take 2. There are 5 matches remaining.
60. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 2
61. 15:46 nevet You play with conviction. Decisively, I take 2. That leaves you with the last match - I win! Better luck next time.
62. 15:46 dreamreal 21 matches
63. 15:46 nevet A new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
64. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 3
65. 15:46 nevet Ah, just as I expected. After weighing my many options, I take 1. There are 17 matches remaining.
66. 15:46 dreamreal 21 take 3
67. 15:46 nevet I see you picked 3. I'd expected you to pick 1. After pretending to think about it, I take 1. There are 13 matches remaining.
68. 15:46 dreamreal ^^^ hee hee
69. 15:46 dreamreal 21 concede
70. 15:46 nevet You live to play another day. This time.
71. 15:47 dreamreal and yes, you can play in DM AND in multiple channels, it's tied to the context in which the game is started
72. 15:47 dreamreal but it means we have context-dependent state, we can actually set up a conversation with the bot now if we write the operations to do it
73. 15:47 Chronos dreamreal: I had asked if you were talking about-generating-URLs-like this using AI, and you explained how you were using it
74. 15:48 dreamreal Chronos: NTW, it's saturday, so if you're here and you want to chat, hurry
75. 15:48 dreamreal Oh? Yeah, and what was the lightbulb?
76. 15:49 Chronos Oh, simply that I had no understanding of the purpose behind nevet before.
77. 15:49 Chronos I knew it could talk to multiple backends. But was not sure fundamentally what it was for.
78. 15:49 Chronos If I'm even understanding now. But it sounds like using AI and chatrooms on various backends to automagically detect interesting conversation and generate articles for bytecode.news?
79. 15:49 Chronos Let me know if I'm way off base.
80. 15:50 dreamreal oh. Well, yeah. It has a lot of motivations: one, I wanted to do javabot better, two, I wanted to have an information stream that actually wasnt limited to a platform, three, I wanted to play with tech... but the capturing stuff is *fallout*, not design
81. 15:50 dreamreal Like, I didn't create it going "I want people to say stuff and i want to skim it bwahahahaha"
82. 15:50 Chronos On a different note, I sure hope you don't go with kinabalu's authen suggestions. ;)
83. 15:50 Chronos dreamreal: Ah, I see.
84. 15:50 dreamreal I haven't gone with any of them yet, it's not really my bailiwick so I move very slowly on it
85. 15:51 dreamreal Chronos: in 2005, when rss and blogs were EVERYWHERE, I had this idea of an RSS reader that would find "interesting content" from the feeds
86. 15:51 dreamreal but the tech wasn't there
87. 15:51 Chronos I tend to consider all of this kind of chatter like talking in a public space. I personally have no "expectation of privacy" (in public chatrooms), and wouldn't care if someone scraped interesting conversations, and used AI to generate articles based on those discussions.
88. 15:51 dreamreal it still isn't, really
89. 15:52 dreamreal well, my thought is that an AI is really good at summarizing contextual information: that's what I used to do at TSS as a day job, too. But if an AI can *draft* something, I can go "you know, this is ridiculous" and discard/rewrite, or edit into shape... and bingo! We have TSS, except smarter and a LOT more thorough (less reliant on MY interests and abilities)
90. 15:52 Chronos Heck, I'm not even against AI scraping all of human knowledge and creation to train models. Largely because I think it's both fair use (or close enough), but also because I'm kind of bullish about AI and don't want well-meaning-but-ultimately-harmful regulations to limit its potential.
91. 15:53 dreamreal I'm neutral about it: I think it's potentially very useful as long as humans don't actually offload thought
92. 15:53 dreamreal which is, of course, happening
93. 15:53 Chronos dreamreal: In many ways, I think our industry has gone *too far* in the direction of "use proven, off the shelf solutions," which is why I'm hoping you don't end up going with kinabula's authen suggestions.
94. 15:53 Chronos And, the more third parties you rely on, well...
95. 15:54 dreamreal Yeah. I mean, I get it, but ... my problem is that I don't know myself how to integrate it. The email thing I know how to do.
96. 15:54 Chronos When someone says, roughly, "X has very generous free tiers," and similar, I shudder in horror. Yep, the first hit is free, glorious free.
97. 15:54 dreamreal I mean, if I decided to pull the trigger on that I could have it done today.
98. 15:54 dreamreal yeah, well, he's not wrong, but...
99. 15:55 dreamreal the thing for me is that the blog service really is an affectation for me, the user auth side is *almost entirely* guesswork on my part.
100. 15:55 dreamreal The userfacing side of it might as well be in swahili, so I'm trying to move very carefully with it.
101. 15:55 Chronos dreamreal: yep! (to what you said above) if AI can produce rough drafts, then a human can curate, tweak, rewrite, etc. as needed. Just pure AI slop would suck (although I'm sure lots of people will try to 100% automate it, with predictable results.)
102. 15:56 dreamreal Yeah, well, the way I envision it, the AI generated stuff goes into a queue and never gets published without a human pulling the trigger
103. 15:57 Chronos Happy to know you're thinking about it rather than jumping straight into "best practices" (gag). ;)
104. 15:57 dreamreal so "generate a summary of xyz.com/foo/bar" creates a draft article (and can do so using *channel content* - like, okay, we're discussing JDBC, here's a great article on it, summarize this gets *the discussion* for context, so if someone says something like "this is interesting because of XYZ" that can be factored in.
105. 15:57 Chronos 100%
106. 15:57 Chronos *Perfect* use of AI, in my opinion.
107. 15:57 Chronos Maybe you can use AI to prove to blue that == and .equals() aren't a problem next!
108. 15:58 dreamreal Well, all he has to do to prove that is look at the people who struggle most with it
109. 15:58 dreamreal the bell curve looks like this: \_____ where the *first flatline* is "people who've used java a week"
110. 15:59 dreamreal But the problem with TSS was definitely volume: even then, I had to read close to 500 things A DAY
111. 15:59 dreamreal to get three interesting news articles, most of it was utter crap ("I discovered how to use javac: here's the wrong way that I use it VERY confidently")
112. 16:00 dreamreal and now it's worse, since so much of it IS ai slop
113. 16:00 dreamreal medium is a trashfire, substack not far off
114. 16:01 dreamreal If I can actually TRAIN a model to detect interesting content from RSS... that'd be awesome, I'd just have nevet scan sources and go "ooo this might be interesting" and feed it through a set of filters until it actually winnows things down
115. 16:01 dreamreal there's no plan for that yet BUT the system's designed to ENABLE it
116. 16:03 dreamreal *everything* gets provenanced ("it comes from here, from this user if any") and fed into an async event stream, which can generate content (directed at an output provenance, by default the SOURCE provenance, but can also be multiplexed so you can go to MULTIPLE outputs), or error out, or get fed into a bitbucket (no output, not handled))
117. 16:04 dreamreal and there's a wiretap on the operations and the egress so everything gets logged (and sanitized to some degree... still can't help if a user puts !say [mypassword] in the logs)
118. 16:10 dreamreal 21 matches
119. 16:10 nevet A new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
120. 16:10 dreamreal 21 take 3
121. 16:10 nevet How delightfully aggressive. With the patience of stone, I take 1. There are 17 matches remaining.
122. 16:10 dreamreal from provenance_state: `irc://libera/%23nevet | 21-matches | {"remaining": 17}`
123. 16:11 dreamreal 21 take 2
124. 16:11 nevet Interesting move. After a moment's pause, I take 2. There are 13 matches remaining.
125. 16:11 dreamreal now: irc://libera/%23nevet | 21-matches | {"remaining": 13}
126. 16:12 dreamreal and the way that HAPPENS: https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/blob/4d91abe4d0aecf201d91761b3df4123111df8f7b/operation-21/src/main/kotlin/com/enigmastation/streampack/matches/operation/MatchesOperation.kt#L102
127. 16:12 dreamreal https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/blob/main/lib-core/src/main/kotlin/com/enigmastation/streampack/core/service/ProvenanceStateService.kt
128. 16:13 dreamreal That API will probably get expanded to allow updates in place (so you don't replace the whole map) but eh, that's easy to do when it's needed
129. 16:14 dreamreal 21 concede
130. 16:14 nevet The matches breathe a sigh of relief.
131. 16:37 blue Chronos: the criticism is mostly about breaking expectations. The Java model of == being compare-by-identity is too rigid, because it doesn't take into account the fact that for some aspects of reality, identity=contents.
132. 16:37 dreamreal for primitives it absolutely takes those into account.
133. 16:37 blue Namely, strings, numbers, booleans. This gets into the philosophy, but there is only one "true" value.
134. 16:37 blue the domain of philosophy*
135. 16:37 dreamreal And for objects, it actually works *consistently*. "compare the identity."
136. 16:38 dreamreal objects, primitives, all of them: == means "compare the identity."
137. 16:38 blue There is only one "1" value and there is only one "foo" value. It makes no sense for any computer language that is halfway upper language to distinguish between the identity of "foo" and its contents.
138. 16:38 blue dreamreal: you're not listening
139. 16:38 blue I *KNOW* how java works: I'm CRITICISING the design decision here
140. 16:38 dreamreal But objects have *reference* as identity, so equals() comes into play as a way to say "now compare *not only identity* - which is optional for objects - but value"
141. 16:38 dreamreal It's a valid design decision
142. 16:39 dreamreal You may not like it, it's valid
143. 16:39 blue It's an opinion, it's not valid or invalid, but to my taste -- and to the chagrin of MANY people, extremely dumb
144. 16:39 nevet It's an opinion, it's not valid or invalid, but to my taste now has karma of -1.
145. 16:39 dreamreal mapOf("foo" to "bar", "baz" to "quux") != mapOf("foo" to "bar", "baz" to "quux")
146. 16:39 dreamreal the chagrin lasts for a day or two, though
147. 16:40 blue that's not a valid comparison: maps are mutable; strings aren't
148. 16:40 dreamreal mapOf() yeilds an immutable map :D
149. 16:40 Chronos dreamreal: TSS?
150. 16:40 blue theserverside
151. 16:40 dreamreal Chronos: theserverside.com
152. 16:40 Chronos Typo for RSS?
153. 16:40 blue nevet's precursor
154. 16:40 dreamreal no
155. 16:40 dreamreal nevet's precursor is purl
156. 16:40 blue I don't know what purl is
157. 16:40 dreamreal bytecode.news as a site is based on what theserverside was intended to be
158. 16:40 dreamreal purl is one of the early infobots
159. 16:41 blue purl sounds like a scottish guy trying to say 'perl' :P
160. 16:41 dreamreal written in perl, go figure
161. 16:41 dreamreal blue: efnet #perl
162. 16:41 blue oh man. I HATED perl, I really did
163. 16:41 dreamreal purl may still be running there, I'm not on efnet any more
164. 16:41 blue I found the syntax SO confusing
165. 16:41 dreamreal I'm sure you did :D
166. 16:41 blue those @, they killed me
167. 16:41 dreamreal blessed types were always bolted on and felt like it
168. 16:42 blue dreamreal, what's your take on ruby?
169. 16:42 Chronos blue: I think it could be argued that, in Java, == should compare object equality, rather than reference equality. And that reference equality should be something else.
170. 16:42 dreamreal it's a language, which is ACTUALLY what I feel about most languages
171. 16:42 dreamreal there are very few languages that I actively dislike: storyserver's tcl is one such example, and it's limited TO storyserver's impl
172. 16:42 blue Chronos: yes. but also, in an ideal world, new Long(1) == new Long(1) should yield true: because there is no scenario where two `new Long(1)` will have a different meaning
173. 16:43 dreamreal there are some ecosystems I can't stand: scala is a language I won't touch because of the people who use it
174. 16:43 blue this is how I feel about rust, dreamreal
175. 16:43 dreamreal blue: valhalla's likely to change that
176. 16:43 Chronos dreamreal: Ah, I've never seen theserverside.com before, thanks.
177. 16:43 blue rust is like the entire democrat party in a programming language
178. 16:43 dreamreal Chronos: I was the editor for TSS in 2005-2007. It was what launched jboss and spring, really
179. 16:43 * dreamreal was a democrat in the distant past, thanks
180. 16:44 blue emphasis on *distant past*
181. 16:44 * dreamreal shrugs. I was a republican in the past, too.
182. 16:44 blue right after they stopped owning slaves and right before they started being totally crazy
183. 16:44 blue :P
184. 16:44 dreamreal nah, I abandoned the democrats in 1979
185. 16:44 blue (which was like, 5 minutes)
186. 16:44 blue Chronos: fyi, dreamreal is the best java developer in the universe that *I* know
187. 16:45 * Chronos spits on both republicans and democrats, toxic shitbags, all of them.
188. 16:45 dreamreal Chronos: also: blue isn't in #java and knows few of them there
189. 16:45 dreamreal blue: FTR there are better java coders than me *in #nevet*
190. 16:45 blue maybe. I don't *know* them
191. 16:45 dreamreal Chronos: yeah, I was registered republican a few years ago because I couldn't handle the democrats but lost the ability to wave any flags for party
192. 16:46 blue I was sure to correctly disclaim my sentence, as you may notice
193. 16:46 Chronos blue: I'm an average developer. Realizing this has been hugely beneficial.
194. 16:46 dreamreal screw 'em all, I'm registered independent now, thankfully my state has open primaries so I get to choose a primary to vote in
195. 16:46 dreamreal blue: I know, I even used the clarification
196. 16:46 dreamreal I'm an average developer, too
197. 16:46 dreamreal I'm not too bad as an architect, but as a developer, meh
198. 16:46 blue Chronos: I'm a lousy developer. Actually, I don't even have a metric to assess myself, which makes me believe I'm probably lousy, because most developers are lousy
199. 16:46 Chronos dreamreal: Both parties have gone *so* far off the rails, it makes me want to weep for our country.
200. 16:47 dreamreal Chronos: Our education system has failed everyone. That's W's fault, and the democrats' for weaponizing it
201. 16:47 Chronos blue: Are you a software engineer at work?
202. 16:47 blue Chronos: yes!
203. 16:47 dreamreal plenty of blame to go around. But the MAIN thing I wish they'd do is, besides, like prioritizing schools, return "civics" to the curriculum
204. 16:47 Chronos dreamreal: yep. I agree.
205. 16:48 dreamreal like, as a mandatory "you gotta have this credit to graduate"
206. 16:48 Chronos blue: What technologies do you work with?
207. 16:48 blue Chronos: java and javascript
208. 16:48 Chronos dreamreal: That's a great idea.
209. 16:48 dreamreal if you don't understand how our government works or is supposed to work, you don't get the cert
210. 16:48 Chronos blue: Ah, fellow blue collar Java scum. Excellent.
211. 16:48 Chronos I'm a Java prostitute, too. <3
212. 16:48 dreamreal can't tell you not to vote, but I'm happy to make it harder on you until you actually learn what america is about
213. 16:49 blue Chronos: yes!
214. 16:49 blue dreamreal: america's, and the west's current most urgent issue, is that everyone is focussed on rights and no one is focussed on duties
215. 16:49 Chronos dreamreal: yep. Civics is critically important to a functioning democracy, and Americans are woefully uneducated in that subject.
216. 16:49 dreamreal I'm kotlin, python, java, nodejs (no user-facing crap HERE!), go, zsh
217. 16:49 blue 50% of being a citizen is duty, but everyone thinks is 100% rights
218. 16:49 blue the ancient spartans and athenians got this, nearly everyone in history got it except modern people who think it's all rights
219. 16:50 dreamreal I *know* a ton of languages: scala, perl, cobol, louis/ii, pascal, ruby, rust, etc
220. 16:50 Chronos dreamreal: Why didn't you choose Go for nevet?
221. 16:50 dreamreal Chronos: ew
222. 16:50 dreamreal dynamics, actually
223. 16:50 blue TOLD YA HE HATES go
224. 16:50 blue Chronos: but know that I'm not happy about it. I'm waiting for the day I can quit myself and focus 100% on my projects
225. 16:50 dreamreal nevet's built around EAI, EAI patterns in Go are bolted on
226. 16:50 dreamreal Go is *great* for one-shot "oh god just cram it out the door" projects
227. 16:51 blue I don't particularly like java as a language, and the way we do it at work is dumb, and I don't really like the sloopy way we do javascript, either
228. 16:51 Chronos In my *opinion*, the problem with democrats if they're democrats first, and Americans second. And, also in my *opinion*, the problem with republicans is they're republicans first, and Americans second.
229. 16:51 dreamreal nevet actually has an LLM proxy written in go, in a prior version
230. 16:51 blue Chronos: good observation
231. 16:51 Chronos dreamreal: Fair enough (re: Go). :)
232. 16:51 dreamreal Chronos: no lie there. My problem with the democrats goes further, though: they're purity-driven and goldfish besides
233. 16:51 dreamreal they are unable to hold more than one concept in their head at a time: they're not UNIQUE in this but it's really bad there because of postmodern infection
234. 16:52 blue dreamreal: they're also deeply racist. Remember Biden telling a black man he's not black if he doesn't vote for him?
235. 16:52 blue it's in their genes, they can't help it
236. 16:52 dreamreal blue: they're not unique in that, though: it's just a virulent racism that's harder to fight, because you can't just illustrate the problem
237. 16:53 Chronos dreamreal: yep. Democrats are *so* purity-driven that they seem to think winning a battle and losing the war is an appropriate outcome, because acting any other way would be immoral.
238. 16:53 blue I think america would indeed be better off if it got completely rid of the concept of race
239. 16:53 dreamreal most racists are racist in *general* but fail to be racist in direct contact
240. 16:53 dreamreal I think racism is great! ... we just keep forgetting that skin color != race
241. 16:53 blue I never saw a black man and thought "wow, that man's race is black! I gotta somehow adapt my behaviour!"
242. 16:53 dreamreal I think marrying outside your race is THE WORST. Apart from, I guess, marrying kids. But you should NEVER EVER marry outside your race.
243. 16:53 dreamreal You want to marry a horse? OMG NO
244. 16:53 Chronos Democrats badly failed by deciding that racism should be used to fix racism.
245. 16:53 blue exactly
246. 16:54 dreamreal You want to marry a woman with black skin where yours is white? ... okay, so what? Both of you are human, no race problems.
247. 16:54 blue dreamreal: exactly; as far as I'm concernedm humans have no races
248. 16:54 blue I mostly parse the word 'race' as you just did: 'species'
249. 16:54 Chronos I'm so happy we can all agree that modern republicans and modern democrats *suck*. :)
250. 16:55 dreamreal Chronos: https://merkavah.substack.com/p/goldfish-come-in-many-colors
251. 16:55 blue I think dog races is ok by convention; by that's a universal convention that carries no additional meaning
252. 16:55 blue s/by/but/
253. 16:55 dreamreal dogs don't have races, they have BREEDS
254. 16:56 blue yes but they're also commonly called races
255. 16:56 dreamreal only by idiots!
256. 16:56 * dreamreal runs
257. 16:56 blue ha
258. 16:56 Chronos Both democrats and republicans hate me, because I hold these two opinions at the same time: (1) deportations of non-U.S. citizens here without approval is appropriate, and our borders should be secure, and (2) the way ICE and the administration is handling the deportations is abominable.
259. 16:56 dreamreal Chronos: you're not unique in that
260. 16:56 Chronos Ah, it feels so good to be hated by everyone, it keeps me warm during these cold Minnesota winters.
261. 16:56 dreamreal I 100% support the mission of ICE while thinking that they, uh, may want to revise strategy
262. 16:57 dreamreal but then again, I think the reason their strategy sucks is because MN authorities defy the law
263. 16:57 blue I mean, however you wanna see it, deporting >10 millions is NOT going to be a walk in the park; it's going to involve some rough stuff
264. 16:57 blue it is still most important to deport every and each illegal alien
265. 16:57 dreamreal eh
266. 16:57 Chronos "Same cognitive limitation, different tribal triggers." — ha!, love it!
267. 16:57 blue they may then get into the queue and apply to enter the country legally
268. 16:57 dreamreal I think there're legit exceptions
269. 16:58 blue dreamreal: do you make exceptions for other crimes?
270. 16:58 dreamreal Chronos: that guy's pretty based
271. 16:58 dreamreal blue: sure. Don't you? Aren't you jewish?
272. 16:58 blue well generally if someone steals something, it's not something I'm going to condone. he needs to return the stolen good and if he is in dire need, I WILL help. but not by fiat!
273. 16:59 dreamreal Okay. Man steals bread to survive. Is guilty of a crime, theft. yet pikuach nefesh applies: he's still guilty, but we extend mercy *because*, right?
274. 16:59 Chronos dreamreal: (I'm a Minnesotan) — There is a small, but *outrageously loud*, minority of Minnesotans that believe in such nonsense as "borders are racist," and other such nonsense. Somehow, they got an outsized influence in Minnesota government.
275. 16:59 dreamreal Chronos: not unique to MN, unfortunately.
276. 17:00 Chronos We also have a small, but *outrageously loud*, minority of people that believe nonsense like "climate change in a democratic hoax," and other such nonsense.
277. 17:00 blue dreamreal: yes. but he will need to compensate for it, in SOME way. don't you agree? he needs to survive, yes, and once he's survived and strong: he needs to work to pay back, in SOME way
278. 17:00 blue the reason we can't ever condone crime is that we break the world by doing that, it's very opposite of tikkun olam
279. 17:00 blue we signal to the world that it's ok
280. 17:01 dreamreal blue: sure. And I'd be fine with an illegal immigrant who has managed to GET AWAY with being illegal for an arbitrary period - let's say he's been here 17 years, kept his nose clean, exemplary resident otherwise - going before a judge, where THAT judge says to THAT immigrant: wow you got one on us, you're illegal: here's mercy, NOW GET LEGAL NOW with some running room. Or else.
281. 17:02 dreamreal If it's EVERY illegal immigrant? Eh, I dunno. But on an individual basis, where actual decisions are made on that level... i'd be okay.
282. 17:02 blue dreamreal: what will be your words to someone who has been int he queue for 17 years (say, on green card lottery), and never got that 'seat' taken by the illegal?
283. 17:02 dreamreal If it's every immigrant we're ignoring the law. If it's Paco at the Taco Stand for $reasons, that's grace and mercy.
284. 17:02 dreamreal blue: life isn't fair.
285. 17:03 dreamreal Sucks to be you, they harmed you, you have a right to resent them.
286. 17:03 blue sure. that's why the illegal who has been illegal for 17 years, needs at the very least to *pay* a fine to compensate for the seat he's taken away from a legal
287. 17:03 dreamreal The queue itself is arbitrary; maybe that guy who's been in the queue for 17 years gets the SAME mercy: "oh, crap, paco at the taco stand took your seat, he owes you"
288. 17:03 dreamreal Law in the round works when it's applied individually
289. 17:04 dreamreal Chronos: see how blue-coded I am. :D
290. 17:04 Chronos This probably makes me racist: I believe some immigrants have cultures that are objectively bad and allowing them in American is harmful to America and Americans.
291. 17:04 Chronos dreamreal: Heh!
292. 17:04 blue Chronos: yes, 100%
293. 17:04 dreamreal Chronos: I don't think that's a racist position
294. 17:04 blue it doesn't make you racist though
295. 17:04 dreamreal I think anyone here who says "death to america" should be escorted to whatever eden they imagine
296. 17:05 dreamreal just not this one
297. 17:05 Chronos At the same time, I'm starting to worry about a lot of the right-leaning people here in Minnesota. They're becoming more bold with opinions like Holocaust denial and that Jews are the root of all of America's problems.
298. 17:05 Chronos dreamreal: The extreme left has redefined racism *so* widely that everything they don't like is racist now.
299. 17:05 dreamreal I'd LOVE it if Jews were actually the root of america's problems! That'd be easy to solve!
300. 17:05 Chronos Err, opinions they don't like.
301. 17:05 blue Chronos: well, incidentally, if there's some one thing the crazy right and the crazy left agree on, is jews=bad
302. 17:05 dreamreal Chronos: yeah, the purity tests
303. 17:06 Chronos dreamreal: yep. Here in Minnesota, *all* left/liberal/democrat stuff is because "Jews are behind it" (according to a growing number of people that lean right). It frightens me.
304. 17:06 dreamreal Chronos: as a Jew, it concerns me, too... but my view of time is apparently relatively rare. I see such things as "oh, look, it's Tuesday... or the 21st century."
305. 17:07 dreamreal "oh no a pogram" gets "... another one?"
306. 17:07 Chronos blue: Yikes, you know, that's true.
307. 17:07 blue the problem is also that people don't have the intellectual honesty/integrity to allow them to get into debates like, why so many ashkenazi jews won nobel prizes, far above their share in the world's population. or why east africans make the best marathon runners
308. 17:08 Chronos blue: *EXACTLY*.
309. 17:08 dreamreal huh, you know, tucker carlson and candace owens are faliing that redemption mechanic in merkavah's post lately themselves
310. 17:08 dreamreal failing
311. 17:08 blue well tucker really disappointed me, dreamreal. I used to like this guy, now he's just becoming an outright antisemite
312. 17:09 dreamreal I haven't cared for him for a long, long time
313. 17:09 Chronos (It is *so* refreshing to talk with *reasonable* people without crazy cult-level beliefs.)
314. 17:09 Chronos (I was beginning to think I was totally alone.)
315. 17:09 dreamreal not sure how much I EVER cared for him: I always saw him as a Sean Hannity-lite, and I never really cared for Hannity either
316. 17:09 blue I noticed it at kirk's wake with his "bunch of guys eating hummus in a backroom" (which is btw, historically inaccurate: hummus was NOT a jewish dish during 0 BC)
317. 17:09 dreamreal at least he was on a show with Colmes and that helped balance him some
318. 17:09 blue Chronos: yes, it is refreshing
319. 17:10 dreamreal gotta admit though, good hummus is awesome
320. 17:10 Chronos Now if only we had candidates with a reasonable chance to win to vote for. ;)
321. 17:10 dreamreal Chronos: right?
322. 17:10 blue this is something I uniquely appreciate about dreamreal: you can have the fiercest debates with him, and he doesn't antagonise you or tries to call you labels
323. 17:10 Chronos I don't want another Biden. I don't want another Trump. Etc.
324. 17:10 dreamreal I hate voting, not because of the act, but because the people who have a chance are so ridiculous
325. 17:10 dreamreal blue: you're absolutely right, you fucking moron
326. 17:11 dreamreal Chronos: yeah, I will never forgive the democrats for the biden era
327. 17:11 blue there's a palpable tension in politics: you *need* to steward society, but also the worst kind of people go into it
328. 17:11 dreamreal I will never willingly vote democrat, ever. I don't prefer the republicans, EXCEPT in contrast to the democrats.
329. 17:11 blue you *need* it*
330. 17:11 blue all the good people I can think of, vehently stay OUT of politics
331. 17:12 blue that's the real problem there
332. 17:12 blue they're too smart for that, and that leaves the arena for the worst
333. 17:12 blue vehemently*
334. 17:12 dreamreal My voting process is "who's I or L? Do they REALLY suck? They do? Crap. Does the R suck too? Write-in it is."
335. 17:12 Chronos dreamreal: I'm *still* of the opinion that in 2024, it was more that the Democrats lost, than the Republicans won. Biden and his administration were close to universally unpopular.
336. 17:12 dreamreal I'm still pissed that Trump won in 2016
337. 17:12 Chronos And Kamala could only promise "more of the same."
338. 17:13 dreamreal Chronos: they screwed themselves over, badly. But who would have been a good D candidate?
339. 17:13 blue I could actually somewhat get around people like andrew yang, but his party crushed him
340. 17:13 dreamreal harris was one of the people with her hands up biden's butt, pulling the strings
341. 17:13 dreamreal I could see Yang, maybe
342. 17:13 dreamreal but he was never significant
343. 17:13 blue but seriously: can anyone conjure up a name of someone in current american politics who is of any worth, at all?
344. 17:14 dreamreal Anyway, it IS shabbat and the afternoon's cranking up
345. 17:14 blue I only see idiots and fools
346. 17:14 dreamreal blue: Cruz and Rubio are okay
347. 17:14 dreamreal Rubio > Cruz IMO
348. 17:14 blue dreamreal: yeah, maybe rubio
349. 17:14 Chronos blue: I like that Talarico guy ;)
350. 17:14 dreamreal I respect Cruz but he's a little too tribal
351. 17:14 Chronos (James Talarico)
352. 17:15 Chronos A Christian that actually understands why Christian Nationalism is a very bad idea. I'm not sure what his other policies are, but at least he's insightful on the subject of Christian Nationalism.
353. 17:16 dreamreal I don't know enough about him to judge
354. 17:16 dreamreal and I'm being called away
355. 17:16 dreamreal y'all have a good afternoon/evening/morning/whatever
356. 17:16 Chronos /o
357. 17:17 Chronos (oops)
358. 17:17 Chronos Bye dreamreal
359. 17:20 dreamreal Chronos: before I get away: nevet and go have some inconsistent design mantras. an operation in nevet is literally class FooOperation implements Operation - it's a little more complicated than that, because there are specifications for operations, but that's basically all that's involved. Implement the requirement, slap it in classpath, DONE.
360. 17:21 dreamreal And go doesn't really have that. Could you DO it? Yeah, you can have registration hooks and all that, but ... instead, nevet discovers what it's supposed to be at runtime and conforms to that shape, and that's how it SHOULD be, IMO.
361. 17:22 dreamreal But that's how SERVICES work, that's how operations work, that's how transformations work: you provide them, they get applied consistently by design and decision. There's not a lot of configuration apart from "how do we provide external data like API keys such that services that need them have access?"
362. 17:23 dreamreal It's not impossible with ANY language; I could have used PHP! But in this case, Spring+Java was well-suited for it.
363. 17:23 dreamreal The actual ORIGINAL design was with OSGi, but... um, yeah.
364. 17:24 dreamreal (That comes from 2006: I wrote an article on OSGi that was meant to serve as the very early design, using the whiteboard pattern for dispatch to operations: imagine nevet running *quite literally* as an eclipse plugin.)
365. 17:24 dreamreal Now, it's sort of using the same kind of dispatch mechanism, except in a bound loop on a channel consumer.
366. 17:25 dreamreal and NOW I'm off. :D
367. 18:14 blue +1