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07:46 jreicher I'm kind of annoyed I didn't know about dmlloyd's articles when I first started teaching myself java.lang.invoke. There's something about the way the JDK documentation is written that is unpleasant.
07:47 jreicher In the end I reached the "conclusion" about where to start: method handles and "signature polymorphism" (which I put in quotes because I don't actually consider it to be a language feature, since its appearance is so tightly constrained)
07:47 jreicher ...reached the same...
12:23 dreamreal https://bytecode.news/posts/2026/05/developer-experience-is-a-performance-feature
12:55 jreicher dreamreal: I can't remember where this is from (I suspect it's a fairly well known line) but the adage that "good testing allows developers to be brave" feels appropriate here.
12:55 dreamreal That IS a good adage.
13:06 jreicher Oh if you haven't heard it before I should find the source.
13:07 jreicher Probably Julius Caesar.
13:07 dreamreal hmm, what language did HE use, I wonder
13:07 dreamreal was he leet like me? Probably not, given that his co-workers stabbed him - probably python.
13:08 jreicher It's all about what ides you use
13:08 dreamreal He probably used netbeans.
13:08 dreamreal or bluej.
13:09 Para Is that why he was stabbed to death?
13:09 dreamreal He probably refused to use six.
13:09 jreicher ides of march guys. Seriously.
13:09 dreamreal Probably all about sex instead.
13:10 Para And copious amounts of lead poisoning from everything.
13:10 dreamreal Well, he was probably a lead programmer
13:11 dreamreal maybe he was a punjabi! ... yes, that was a pun, and it was hilarious
13:11 dreamreal you know, jabby, and puns, together, and he was stabbed to death
13:11 dreamreal etc
13:14 dreamreal jreicher: it sounds like you're sort of miquoting kent beck, FWIW
13:14 dreamreal it's a really good framing
13:14 jreicher Very possible. You have the original?
13:15 Para Aunt Beck
13:15 dreamreal it's from beck's "extreme programming explained," courage is one of the four original XP values; without tests, changing code is gambling; with them, it's an experiment with a fast feedback loop.
13:16 dreamreal but I don't find the direct adage, but it's a paraphrase that captures the idea better than kent's; I guess he DID haveto fill more pages, though...
13:16 Para XP was kinda odd. It tried its hardest but just didn't stick.
13:17 Para With a big dose of "But we're already doing things almost like that?"
13:17 dreamreal the nice thing abotu XP is that it's EXTREEEEEEEEMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!11!!!11!!!lol!!!!!omg!!!wtfbbq!!!!!
13:18 dreamreal (I use a lot of XP principles in my programming, but Eclipse can take a long walk off a short pier. It works, it's cool, if you like eclipse that's great, but I found the perspectives mindset unfortunate.)
13:19 dreamreal and I think using the LABEL XP is a lot different than "XP didn't stick" - the label didn't, I guess. Same for agile, but people use a LOT of those principles in daily life, to the point where they're almost background noise. I think it succeeded better than you might think.
13:20 Para Remember how Microsoft went all "It doesn't mean extreme! >:(" when they released Windows XP.
13:21 dreamreal oddly enough, windows XP would have benefitted a lot from XP
13:21 Para (the name was chosen by marketing and it was meant to stand for eXPerience, but somehow the corporate site decided that it's something nonsensical instead)
13:21 jreicher I've never liked Eclipse, but the whole project was redeemed for me by the language server it's produced. That has made a big difference to my work.
13:23 dreamreal Eclipse as an umbrella org has been a huge positive for the java ecosystem. Eclipse as a development platform has, too, honestly. And Eclipse has had some GENUINELY good variants: WSAD was actually good if you decided to lean in, myeclipse was the best Eclipse for rank and file developers IMO (and the genuitec guys are GREAT). But eclipse requires you to want to think like beck.
13:25 sonOfRa Still use eclipse (actually apache directory studio) a lot, because it's the ~only usable ldap client+browser
13:25 jreicher That's an interesting observation. I might try it; I've never found an ldap utility I liked.
13:26 sonOfRa it's sometimes a bit annoying to launch, because it's not really developed much anymore. But it still works because it's not like ldap is changing a lot
13:26 dreamreal That's a good reason to avoid LDAP, of course. Good thing JNDI is better and has nothing to do with LDAP at ALL, la la laaaaa I can't hear youuuuuuu
13:26 sonOfRa dreamreal: tell that to the crazy people putting some form of active directoy in every goddamn company on the planet
13:27 dreamreal I SAID I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
13:28 jreicher Let's be honest: AD is just a weird DB that backs an LDAP implementation
13:28 dreamreal ... and it's a good thing none of us remember Log4Shell
13:28 dreamreal not a single one of us, it's almost like you can't literally use LDAP semantics to inject vulnerabilities
13:30 Shell jreicher: also their Kerberos extensions are really interesting.
13:33 jreicher Shell: for LDAP or AD?
13:34 Shell AD's
13:35 Shell The LDAP bit of AD is boring :p
13:36 jreicher Well Kerberos is definitely interesting. I've always felt like it's a fundamentally "right" design.
15:04 sbalmos dreamreal: y'know, reading Christian's post, one thing I have had in my mind for a long while is the inverse of Google's 20% rule. There should be 20% of a project, or an epic (if you're still into the whole epic/sprint/whatever thing), dedicated to tech debt removal. May not be outright code removal. It might be architectural planning for code removal. Whatever. But intentional tech debt removal in
15:04 sbalmos itself, and not piling patch on patch on patch, contributes to the DevEx
15:08 jreicher What is Christian's post, and the 20% rule? I'm very interested in the reduction of tech debt in a corporate environment. Always a tricky thing to achieve.
15:41 Para jreicher: Google used to have on purpose allocated 20% "innovation time", as in one day per week people were allowed to work on whatever as long as they produced something they could later on demo to the whole unit.
15:42 Para jreicher: At least GMail and Google Docs started this way, if I remember correctly. Possibly Google+ as well, maybe Google Reader. Fix my misinfo and check facts with...Google :)
15:43 jbosmans seeing talk of google's 20% rule makes me feel really old :)
15:52 dreamreal jreicher: https://bytecode.news/posts/2026/05/developer-experience-is-a-performance-feature
15:52 Para jbosmans: The misimplementations of that were of course even more fun.
15:52 Para "We can't spare 20%! That's valuable!" -> somehow we got 10%, and it had to be latter half of Friday.
15:53 Para Also a calendar invite was sent with name "innovation time"
15:53 Para Corporate mandated 3,5 hours of innovation time. With expectation of results from everyone.
15:53 jbosmans yeah, of course i loved the sentiment etc
15:54 jbosmans then, later, i realized the answer to "what's better than a shitton of money"
15:54 Para ability to still enjoy life
15:54 jbosmans "a bigger shitton of money" etc, aka i guess (sadly) i grew up or something
15:55 jbosmans oh yeah sorry, was speaking from google perspective there :)
15:55 sbalmos at a certain level of shitton of money, different for each person's lifestyle, acquiring further shittons of money becomes relatively pointless
15:55 jbosmans not for listed companies i guess
15:56 jbosmans also, it makes one learn, the easiest way to earn more money is to cut costs
15:56 jbosmans talking from a mgmt point of view here now ^
15:57 jbosmans 5% more profit vs 5% less costs
15:57 Para There are ways to calculate what one person's pile should be, and for most people the amount is both surprisingly large yet not that huge at all.
15:57 Para This sum is of course heavily dependent on everything, so what applies to me doesn't apply to you etc. :)
15:58 jbosmans yeah, and anyway, everything always needs to be put in it's time & context etc
15:59 Para And all this comes with the dreadful "what then?" problem.
16:00 Para Like...if you were to gain magical lump sum today, what would happen then? Still continue working? Try that dream of yours and find out you liked it more as a fantasy, not as something to actually do?
16:01 dreamreal If I were to win the lottery today, I'd still be a programmer, still write stuff for people to read that I hoped was worthwhile. And I'd probably start a recovery program if I could afford it and the liabilities that came with it; if not, I'd make sure my local food banks and my local libraries were well-stocked.
16:04 dreamreal I've been thinking about that recovery program for literal decades, back when I thought I was gonna retire at 30 since I was a programmer and programmers were gonna ALL be rich thanks to IPOs never ending.
16:04 Para I have a sort of a plan like that as well. A pre-divvy of pushing out most of it from my hands because 1) I'm a terrible investor 2) I want to avoid Gollum/Smaug mode, so better donate the money I really don't need ASAP to causes.
16:05 dreamreal I was gonna buy some land and hire people "down on their luck" to work it - give them employment, experience, shelter, food security so they could get on their feet and go elsewhere and live more productive lives
16:05 dreamreal whatever necessary job training such work would require
16:05 Para Having an orchard or somesuch as rehabilitation workplace wouldn't be terrible.
16:07 dreamreal That way, anyone going by my local food bank would get a "hey, you need employment? Well, I have this that needs doing and *you can do it*" no matter what they were able to do, because I wasn't going to imagine going "wait, no, you're too old, you're too crippled, you're to [wrong whatever]"
16:07 dreamreal but then the idiot company rode out the dotcom bust and that dream kinda ended
16:08 dreamreal (I do, however, volunteer at my local food bank, and donate blood when I'm able as well.)
16:31 jbosmans i think so yes, i mostly love what i do <Para> Like...if you were to gain magical lump sum today, what would happen then? Still continue working?
16:31 jbosmans not every minute of every day ofc :)
16:35 dreamreal I probably wouldn't change much myself
16:35 dreamreal just the people around me would benefit
16:39 Para I had the silliest moment about two years ago when I got into a fortunate situation where I was both rent and debt free.
16:39 Para Had to point out to a few friends that that doesn't make me a millionaire automagically, it just means I don't have huge money sinks in my life anymore. I can still be poor and debt/rent free.
16:40 Para (unless someone's handing out bags of money for everyone who manages to get into this point and I just didn't get the memo)
17:37 mlxdy Hi, Java development is possible on Emacs or Vim? Anyone is doing something like this?
17:38 mlxdy Maybe I'm not planning to use them for Java, but I'm just curious.
17:39 Para Everything's possible, but you'll save literally years of your life by learning an IDE.
17:39 Para ~ide
17:39 javabot IDE stands for "Integrated Development Environment", and an IDE is basically a tool that helps you write and manage your projects. Most Java IDEs are multi-language, including non-JVM languages. There are two really popular ones (~idea and ~eclipse) and one far less popular one (~netbeans), and a number of others suitable for java, like ~vscode. Generally, use IDEA, Eclipse, or VSCode.
17:40 Drixtan mlxdy: I am using vim (not neovim), so yea, that's totally possible
17:41 mlxdy Drixtan: Are you doing any advanced Java development in it?
17:41 Drixtan what's "advanced java development" ?
17:42 Para FWIW for personal use whatever you feel like works for you.
17:43 Para For corporate environments IDEs will make your life infinitely easier.
17:43 Drixtan I highly suggest to use an IDE.
17:43 Para You can also get the same benefit for your personal life as well, but if JVM isn't your main platform/Java in general isn't the mainstay, it gets more difficult.
17:43 Para Clojure users tends to love emacs :P Personally I don't, but alas
17:45 mlxdy Also I would like to ask why you like Java?
17:45 ernimril mlxdy, if you go for vim or emacs you will want to configure a lsp or something like that, it will take a bit to setup
18:03 dreamreal mlxdy: what's not to like? Predictable, excellent performance, easy to write
18:03 dreamreal and you can't use emacs to develop java: it requires something that can write text files, so emacs is out
18:03 dreamreal you'd have to have a text editor of some sort, as java source is text
18:08 dreamreal I have heard tell, stories really, told about a campfire as wolves howl in the night, of people using things like vi, /usr/bin/joe, even *nano* to write code as in the olden days, almost with quill and ink, but surely that's nonsense
18:08 dreamreal can you guys IMAGINE what it was like to have to know programming languages well enough to just... you know... write them?
18:13 Drixtan dreamreal: non sense, AI everywhere mate, vibing to the moon 'til dawn
18:13 dreamreal oh then emacs is fine
18:13 dreamreal whew
18:13 * dreamreal cranks up lucid
18:14 DoofusCanadensis i dont think you want to be lucid while doing ai
18:14 dreamreal I was talking about lucid emacs, noob
18:14 dreamreal if you know me at all, MY lucidity isn't in question
18:15 DoofusCanadensis that was the joke, son
18:15 GreenResponse it’s all Matrix fault: 1337 hax0rs writing in text mode, shell and nano
18:16 dreamreal in soviet russia, joke tells YOU
18:25 Para dreamreal: you can launch vim from within emacs! it's a text editor
18:27 DoofusCanadensis any good OS should be able to launch a text editor, this is true.
18:29 * dreamreal hands DoofusCanadensis the commodore 64
18:30 DoofusCanadensis I have one, thanks
18:30 dreamreal you know, now that I think about it, I'm not sure how to use the disk drives on the c64 any more, so much I've forgotten of the old ways
18:31 DoofusCanadensis no doubt
18:32 DoofusCanadensis I have a coco2 as well... the cassette tapes have probably faded away even if I still had the tape drive
18:32 dreamreal Which c64 do you have? The real one or the ultimate?
18:33 DoofusCanadensis the mini one they shipped a few years ago
18:33 DoofusCanadensis HDMI output and SD Cards with built in games
18:33 dreamreal ah, cool. I saw those but chose the ultimate, because the form factor and the actual keyboard is part of it, otherwise VICE, etc., are fully sufficient
18:35 DoofusCanadensis the ultimate looks cool, tbh
18:35 dreamreal I'm still in that "holy cow, this is awesome" phase - I've been digging up old abandonware games and playing them, like lode runner, stealth, and so forth, doing SOME programming (oscar64 is *surprisingly* useful) but not a ton
18:35 dreamreal I haven't tried the turbo cpu mode, even, still lurking in 1mhz mode
18:36 dreamreal I am definitely amused by how much fun I'm having with it - my youngest son says "you sound like you're having a blast programming ... a toaster."
18:36 dreamreal I would be mad at him about it but he's probably right :D
18:37 DoofusCanadensis hahahaha
18:37 dreamreal i showed him stix, and he was like "... and this is supposed to be fun, right?" (he was definitely amused, and definitely poking me about it, and I'm down for it: he ain't wrong.)
18:37 DoofusCanadensis yup
18:37 Para dreamreal: Sounds like you need to buy a video toaster next so that your kid comments on it again you can get the appropriate dad joke in.
18:37 dreamreal hahaha, well, I DID have an Amiga back in the day...
18:37 DoofusCanadensis HAH
18:38 DoofusCanadensis a new Amiga would be cool
18:38 dreamreal I don't think my wife would be down for even more retro hardware, for one thing, and for another, the c64 is enough: I loved my amiga but honestly everything the amiga could do my mac can do WAY better, and I can't say that about the 64
18:38 dreamreal DoofusCanadensis: november '26, apparently
18:39 DoofusCanadensis oh? neat!
18:39 dreamreal i never used the toaster on the amiga: I've never been good at visual arts
18:44 Drixtan I want an amiga for this game: https://thalamusdigital.itch.io/roguecraft-dx-amiga Released in 2026 mind you
18:44 nevet Roguecraft DX (Amiga) by Thalamus Digital Publishing Ltd.
18:44 javabot Drixtan's title: "Roguecraft DX (Amiga) by Thalamus Digital Publishing Ltd."
18:46 Drixtan that game requires 2mb ... look at that beauty for 2mb... we clearly did something wrong in the "evolution" of software programming somewhere between the end of amiga and today.
18:52 dreamreal hell, I'm still playing nethack in ascii mode
18:52 dreamreal nethack 5 released, baby!
18:59 DoofusCanadensis yeah, I was prompted to play it again
19:02 Drixtan I know man, nethack still beats me _all_the_time_; I've never ascended - I suck :(
19:02 dreamreal I've never ascended, either
19:02 dreamreal but I tend to play wizards, and they're hard mode
19:02 Drixtan yea, priest here, mid range
19:02 dreamreal There's harder - but getting a wizard to the point where they're able to survive is... rough
19:03 dreamreal before nethack 5 my top 10 was *filled* with priests and fighters but I enjoy playing wizards most :/
19:03 Drixtan how are you supposed to manage your fights at the beginning without any spell / mana? like you totally depend on your pet?
19:03 dreamreal your pet, luck, and time. Pray a lot for food.
19:04 dreamreal find an altar, convert it, magicbane.
19:04 dreamreal nethack 5 rebalances stuff, too, so the arc is different; still getting used to that.
19:05 Drixtan is it me or 5 generates the dungeons differently? I can't tell exactly, or describe it, but just saying they feel differents like: real dead-end corridors, more hidden passages, more doors
19:10 DoofusCanadensis given they moved the generation into lua files, the generation *is* totally different
19:18 Para eww, I just had a terrible idea
19:19 Para Lua, being of just one of the two prototype based actually popular and stable(ish) languages could model everything through ducktyping.
19:19 Para So...why not make a dungeon generator by recursively ducktyping "world" prototype.
19:19 Para It'd be like adventuring into a fractal!
19:22 dreamreal you could do it with clojure pretty easily
19:23 dreamreal nethack moved to lua a WHILE back though
19:23 dreamreal like early 3.7, maybe 3.6
19:24 Para Clojure is still limited by stack...I mean sort of, you can metaprogram it to do that.
19:24 Para There's actually lisp gamejam soon, so go wild.
19:24 Para https://itch.io/jam/spring-lisp-game-jam-2026
19:24 dreamreal I'm still using clojure to generate hallmark movie scripts, thank you
19:25 dreamreal some of them are great
19:25 Para Cluedo and Hallmark movies are suprisingly similar.
19:27 * dreamreal needs to crank up that script generator
19:27 dreamreal you guys might enjoy it
19:27 dreamreal you guys might enjoy it
19:28 dreamreal https://pastebin.com/bkaZAzS8
19:29 Para The Macguffin should be an off-brand toy or similar.
19:29 Para Like...Turboman.
19:30 dreamreal it's randomly generated, of course.
19:30 dreamreal I can create about 500 different scripts in about 700ms. :D
19:30 Para That's barely enough for this Christmas.
19:31 * dreamreal allocates 2000ms.
19:31 dreamreal The story beats are pretty much always the same - I mean, hallmark, right? - but the details are pretty variable
19:31 Para Now we're talking. Here's a million and a greenscreen.
19:31 dreamreal and since it's clojure, generating new ones is just a matter of adding a few references here and there
19:31 Para ...the only reason I'm aware of Hallmark as a concept is Red Letter Media :)
19:32 Para That said, it is quite silly.
19:32 dreamreal hallmark is great
19:32 dreamreal My wife and I are quite amused, often by different aspects: she's always watching for how the quirky companions get abandoned by the script, I'm never sure the story's real until there's a corpse
19:32 Para https://www.imdb.com/title/tt33455358/ and sometimes it ends up with stuff like this
19:33 dreamreal hmm, I'm not sure my script generator can do that one, hmmm
19:33 Para I'm not going to spoil that if you haven't watched the relevant RLM video, but one of their big sale taglines is "from the creator of Money Plane"
19:33 dreamreal need to add a "simultaneous and utterly artificial scheduling conflict"
19:33 dreamreal hahahaha
19:33 dreamreal I was amused a lot more by hallmark christmas movies before they got all woke and added jewish themes
19:34 dreamreal now I'm offended :D
19:34 dreamreal (I am not, but their impression of what makes a storyline jewish is... amusing)
19:34 Para Isn't that a perfect source of conflict? I want to get married on Christmas but I'm Jewish and my rabbi won't allow it! ...or something.
19:34 dreamreal "Can we make it a christmas movie, but with jews, so it's got santa claus and... dreidels? And a latke? What's a latke, BTW?"
19:35 Shell lmao what
19:35 dreamreal so... yeah, I watch the hallmark jewish movies like a hawk
19:35 Para And of course since it'll be made by people who don't really know anything about the whole thing, the wedding party gets confused with bar mitzvah with elements from quinceanera because someone thought it looks pretty.
19:35 dreamreal They're hilarious even when they're not meant to be funny
19:35 dreamreal yeah, pretty much
19:36 dreamreal "Can we have the main love interest say 'oy vey?' is that enough?"
19:36 dreamreal If *I* made a hallmark jewish movie, I'd have them speak yiddish, but with overdubs, so they'd say the english words and the sound would use the overdubs so the words didn't match
19:37 dreamreal ... anyone with connections here? Come on, hook a schlomcha up
19:37 dreamreal (other jews in the channel: shut up, it's a joke)
19:38 Para Oh yeah, unnecessary word drops are a must.
19:38 Para "I am French therefore I say le every now and then."
19:38 dreamreal "See what I have to deal with heah? oy vey. Shabbat shalom. Goyische."
19:39 Para From a very convoluted etymology POV you just said part of my real name, btw :)
19:40 dreamreal stop being selfish, this is all about me
19:40 Para Although I very much doubt the story, it felt very backported.