Paradreamreal: So funny story from brighter past, when I worked with analytics data collection and processing, I was once asked how sure I am the numbers higher-ups were representing in board meetings were accurate. I gave them an example run-off of where inaccuracy was added a noted that due to exponential failure the six steps of middle management (everyone wants their thumb in the pie) caused over 50%
Paraspread to original numbers making dice rolls more accurate representation of the situation than whatever is on the slides. I also told them how to get the actual data ignoring the middle management.
ParaNeither of these two were taken very fondly, top didn't like to hear that it's all garbage and middle hated to be pointed out that they were just harmful. Ahh, young and stupid...
NeXeNjreicher: i always liked the anti kiss people. i forget one of their quotes i had read back in the day. "Simple is good until you have to maintain it. Why not make it simple to maintain instead of simple to write?" or some such
ParaOh how unpopular that ideology is among consultants and rockstar devs (caveat: I'm a work-for-hire consultant)
[twisti]ive long since come to the conclusion that the most important part of my job is telling people no and spending the day on reddit
node1ellow!
NeXeN[twisti]: my great-uncle used to always have a saying.....i'm probably chopping up the translation....but you never say yes to a deal offered to you, no matter how good it sounds. you always say no. if they turn and walk away, you've learned the true price. but if they haggle, you learned the price of your foolishness. or something like that. it sounded better when he said it
NeXeNbut he would say no to things all the time, then later go bake up a plan and make it come true. like my aunt would say something about her duck pond and he'd say no. then surprise her with the new waterfall on her birthday
[twisti]yeah i dont do that, i just say no to dumb ideas and requests and then spend my day procrastinating, which is still better than doing dumb ideas and ending up with an inflated code base and an actually less happy customer because their bad idea led to months of email chains and complaints because the bad idea didnt turn out good
[twisti]obviously i cant say no all the time, but i am absolutely convinced that if you were to measure the net value to the company over ten years, the times i say no to things are the ones with the biggest positive impact
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node1any opportunity ?
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[twisti]what ?
NeXeN[twisti]: yeah that's what i was getting at. you have to learn to say no to take control over your affairs so you can do the things people need
NeXeNif you constantly drink from someone else's firehose then you're never going to help them put out the fire
[twisti]that is a weird saying, ill have to ponder than
NeXeN[twisti]: i wish you had told me what you said when i was young. i was constantly always at the mercy of customers that never paid well
NeXeNit's like the cheap skates are the ones never satisfied and the rich guys are always like "wow that's cool"
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[twisti]eh, im 47 (or 46 maybe ?), not like i knew that stuff when i was younger either
NeXeNyeah, it's so true tho. even your own boss can be the one to make you fail
NeXeNyou know, as managers they want you to do good. but they don't always know the best way to get the best out of you. and if you just keep doing what they say they might lemming you off the cliff by accident
[twisti]i got lucky, i have a pretty fantastic xo (in most aspects), he is hands off enough to let me go down rabbit holes, is always super interested when i find some exciting new thing, and has a good and supportive way to curtail ideas that maybe seem exciting, but probably arent great long term (like refactoring something to use new exciting google things). he always manages to convey the feeling that he is shoulder to shoulder with me on how awesome
[twisti]this thing looks, and how much it sucks that in that example google has a history of abandoning awesome things, and how much it would suck if we had to refactor away from it two years later; but lets watch it and see where it goes popularity wise and maybe reconsider it if it gets big enough that if google pulls out the community takes over
[twisti]and that 'tactic' works well on me, because it makes me feel validated and like my idea was good, and that we are both fighting the same enemy/obstacle, instead of coming to see him as the gatekeeper of fun who kills my excitement for a living
[twisti]man i type a lot when procrastinating a task i dont want to do. time to break up with my sort-of-affair
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deeboany ideas for lowest effort pubsub/event system in a spring boot app that could start as local only and be made cluster aware later?
deebocurrent usecase is just "this thing was saved, figure out (async) if something needs to be updated in the search index"
ParaDo you know what the future cluster system would be? The choice is mostly about protocols and then some features related to message routing.
ParaLast time I did something like that I chose the boring thing where I had one service interface with two implementations, one for AWS SQS and one which used BlockingQueue.
deebono idea, on aws so could use their message queues
dreamrealPara: that's never happened to ME. (I got a law changed in FL because I pointed out to some senators that their new tax idea was impossible to do without revising an OLDER, probably more important law, or revising the new feather in their cap. Thankfully, they revised the feather.)
deeboand locally just synchronous or something
dreamrealnode1: please don't do that here. Earn the opportunity, don't beg for one.
dreamrealdeebo: redis, amqp?
dreamrealignite?
ParaOf course the full loop was that we had an REST API endpoint for incoming messages, so it got around the routing issue by not caring about it all, basically just a sink/tap model with pipe wide open for whatever goes through it.
node1how to earn? asking for opportunity is not begging
ParaAWS SQS with AWS v2 SDK is pretty alright to use and wrap around for this. If you want more reactive then...hm, don't use AWSpring, but there probably is some library or Spring module already doing the abstraction(s) for you.
node1When you apply for a job, it’s not about begging.? as per your defination
ParaTo be very clear, while I commend AWSpring/Spring Cloud AWS for their efforts, it's kinda bad.
dreamrealnode1: Participate, be a channel member who contributes value
dreamrealWhen you apply for a job, you're using a mechanism whose purpose is finding talent, that's not THIS CHANNEL
ParaI don't think I've ever seen a single job being asked or applied on this channel.
* dreamreal refuses to mention the 7 jobs he's gotten through IRC
dreamreal... including his present position
dreamreal... from this channel
deebomy first job was via irc, implementing jdk5 apps on set top boxes for digital tv stuff :)
Parapish posh, you're an outlier as denoted by the invisible @
dreamrealThat invisible @ is partly BECAUSE OF the same mechanism by which I've acquired employment here: I try to contribute value without a gate
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dreamrealI will expressly try to help anyone and everyone until they make effort to be so unpleasant as to make it a burden
Paradeebo: In any case, I do recommend looking into features and limits of AWS SQS. I like it as a service, and as long as its inherent latency and commit/ack model works for you, it's pretty good.
dreamrealdeebo: you're limited to AWS on this?
ParaJust be ready to do a bit of heavy lifting as SQS messages are limited in size.
dreamrealand avoid dynamo like the plague it is
ParaAWS has probably a dozen other services which could be used as well, but with these specs I default to SQS.
dreamrealdynamo would actually solve a lot of it for you but it's dynamo
deebonah not aws scoped, i'm mostly interested in the abstraction so it can scale to cluster wide later if needed
ParaAWS Redis/ElastiCache is more of a key based cache.
dreamrealwell, an eventually-consistent datastore (like ignite, dynamo, etc) would do it
ParaThe mental model for future clustering is better to start as "one-node cluster".
deebocould also just use the postgres we're on
node1Could you please explain what you mean by ‘contribute value’?
ParaWhere the one node might be just a hashmap.
dreamrealnode1: "be a good person, help everyone you can, make things around you better if you can"
deebothough does postgres propagate messages through nodes itself
Paradeebo: It's not a bad option either if you don't have tons of messages to process over time. Postgres data model chokes eventually if you do millions of writes/deletes to a table.
dreamrealI don't know how much I succeed at any of those but damn it I TRY and I try HARD
ParaAnd of course chosen Postgres clustering scheme matters then as well, but that's not space I'm very familiar with.
node1I’ve always tried to help people on this network, mostly with Python, Linux, and other technical topics. But I feel that the value I contributed was never really recognized or returned.
node1People ask poorly worded questions, you put in the effort to understand them and provide a detailed answer, and then they just ghost you.
dreamrealSure, but THIS CHANNEL is not THIS NETWORK
node1Sometime if their wish they say thank you, while others never respond at all.
dreamrealwe don't know or care about the other channels except by accident
node1ok.
dreamrealand yes, that interaction model is pretty normal for IRC
dreamrealif you're trying to help so you can collect accolades, you're doing it wrong.
dreamrealIt'd certainly be polite and appropriate for those whom you help to say "hey, thank you, that was useful" or even "that didn't work, but I appreciate the effort" but ... people
deebothese arent that frequent events, could easily just add a async task to figure out what to do, but since this is clearly something that needs to be done more and more, something done via events would make more sense
node1how many of us agreed with dreamreal here?
node1i just wanted to understand the mental understanding of us
node1I believe these aren’t really life supporting skills; I’ve and others mostly used them for commercial purposes.
node1But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with helping others, doing good, and not expecting anything in return is something wrong.
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hassoon'morning
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node1If my skills can genuinely help save someone’s life, I’ll do it for free without hesitation. I can even spend four hours a day helping the public for free. But if someone benefits from my time and skills and can’t even say thank you, honestly, that feels awful.
dreamrealnode1: sure. But again, if you're doing it for the dopamine hit of someone saying "thank you" that's going to be rough on IRC
dreamrealyou're not really a "person" here, you're a string of lit pixels on a screen and people see those bits as an "it" and not a "thou" in the Martin Buber sense
node1I’m being completely honest: I’m happy to help people with things I know and where I can genuinely be productive. But, just like the idea behind free software is to build trust and create a community of users with similar interests, I also have my own perspective on how I want to share my skills and contribute.
dreamrealnode1: I wouldn't imagine that you were being dishonest about it. I'm just telling you what *my* perspective on it is.
dreamrealBut if you're trying to FIND ENGAGEMENTS IN #java, well... I've done it here, relatively often, and I *think* I know what I'm on about.
node1ok.
dreamrealI may not be, but then again, like I said, my current engagement was acquired *on this channel*
node1ok :)
dreamrealMost of the others were negotiated in other channels with people with whom I connected *here*, so even they can be credited to #java if that's what you'd like to do
dreamrealnote to all you other people active right now: dang, node1 asked a question for which an answer would have been simple, why not respond, hoseheads :D
ParaWhy spend the effort when this is something we know you'll be passionate about to answer in full :)
dreamrealBecause he asked YOU to validate what I was saying. I mean, I'm quite likely to agree with myself most of the time.
dreamreal(You know how it is: two jews, five opinions. Given that I'm only ONE jew most of the time: one jew, three and a half opinions.)
* NeXeN ponders
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dreamrealNeXeN: with all due respect, the question wasn't THAT deep, yeesh :D
NeXeNit wasn't the question i was pondering but the answer
NeXeNsometimes a shallow question can yield a deep answer and a deep question a shallow answer. and sometimes you can actually limit the answer like when talking to an llm "give me the straight up no bs version: How do i ....."
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NeXeN"All-right lets get down to brass tacks! We should start by....."
* NeXeN facepalm
dreamrealJust don't forget to tell the LLM "make no mistakes"
NeXeN"This is the no mistake version of the bug fix, I've applied for you." "Oh it seems i've made a mistake, there's a bug in the bug fix. Here let me drop this production table and that should clear up the error"
sbalmosthe mistake made was listening to dreamreal and believing it
sbalmos(this is what I wake up to)
dreamreal"Oh, it didn't drop because of a foreign key relationship. Let's drop the whole database, now we can't see any problems. Wait, let's port to sqlite like 4,128,387,218.167 tutorial pages do. Done! ... wait, I found a mistake."
sbalmosdreamreal: oh, btw, gimme a job, dammit!
NeXeNi don't ever listen to or believe anything he says, but i do sometimes respond
NeXeNnot because i don't care but because i'm usually asleep at this hour
dreamrealsbalmos: do you need one? I know a guy...
sbalmossame
sbalmosdreamreal: I know guys too, and no. not yet. :P
* node1 realizes that the way I asked may not have been appropriate or professional.
dreamrealnode1: I don't know if it was inappropriate or unprofessional, just not especially *effective*
NeXeNwait, let me read the backscroll
sbalmosbackscroll was too much for me just waking up here
NeXeNoh i see. yeah node1 don't take it personally. everyone goes thru the gauntlet when they join a channel. that's how you learn the rules. they write 'em down but i never read them anyways
dreamrealbwahaha, sbalmos saw "dreamreal" and went "yep, nonsense!"
dreamrealsbalmos: ++
nevetsbalmos now has karma of 2.
sbalmospretty much
NeXeNif you have a question i love working on hard problems. make sure it's a doozy
dreamrealI personally love easy problems because the answers are so easy to spew, and I get credit for trying even if it's low-effort. "With sqlite, I ..." "oh, don't use that. Next!"
node1Yeah, I understand. I just need to sync my thoughts with yours so we can understand each other and express
NeXeNand i agree node1, one should do without the expectation of return. personally i prefer to help others because it's better for me to learn on their problem not my own :^)
sbalmosargh, too many buzzwords
* jreicher wonders if "buzzword" is a buzzword
dreamrealbut nexen's approach is actually *utterly* valuable, and hard to oversell. Hard problems with no risk? HECK YES. It's just that the answers need to acknowledge that MY response has no skin in the game, IRC is high-noise and can rarely express a problem completely enough (thus a lot of "that won't work because of these issues I couldn't/didn't tell you about...") and so forth
node1NeXeN Learning from someone else’s problems is great(an individual to grow), but make sure that lesson should be useful for you in your own future.
NeXeNyeah other than that, paste your code to a pastebin and ask your question with the url. sometimes we can't always be at the keyboard. most of us sleep weird hours or work or both, sometimes at the same time
NeXeNnode1: i keep copious notes. i save my backscroll and reduce it to a knowledge base. i literally have like a report of everyone i've ever helped, every problem i've ever had and all that. dunno what to do with it, i never search it first anymore
dreamrealand there's that, too: irc is async by nature. But even pastebins can't really help: my current codebase is thousands of lines in thousands of *source files* over hundreds of modules in a monorepo
NeXeNyeah but one can make an mre and then i can reproduce and solve the problem
ParaAnd we _live_ in weird hours, as I think we have about 7 hour offset in timezones alone.
* dreamreal points at nevet, which is indeed a knowledgebase dressed up like a bot
node1Otherwise, you learned something and never put it to use like earning a degree in computer science and then never actually working in the field.
NeXeNso yes, good to point out. make sure it comes with a mre, and describe the problem well
Parajavabot: *poink*
javabotPara, what does that even *mean*?
ParaAh, it's alive.
NeXeNjavabot--
nevetjavabot now has karma of -1.
javabotjavabot has a karma level of 382, NeXeN
dreamrealjavabot has a knowledgebase without BEING a knowledgebase
javabothooray! I'm useful!</zoidberg>
sbalmoshuh, never realized we had that response in there. see? I learned something here today already
dreamreal~literal javabot $1
javabot<reply>No, $who. $1 yourself.
dreamrealpfft
ParaAhh, the government form attitude.
dreamrealif it wasn't the right attitude, the government wouldn't have it, right?
NeXeNnode1: were you wanting help or just discussion on the topic of helping?
NeXeNbecause i'm about to book out in ....less than 45
node1Just discussing the topic of helping for now, nothing specific I need help with.
sbalmoswe all need help, especially dreamreal
* dreamreal need lotsa hep, me so compitent
NeXeNno, please do not assist that person
NeXeNit's ok when it's pinky and the brain scale, but if the scale gets out of control, i'm scared for pinky
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* CodeGeek!~codegeek@about/java/CodeGeek changed the topic to: Welcome! || Read Channel Rules at https://javachannel.org/ before participating. || Paste limit is two lines; ~pastebin lists options. || No applets, please. || Minecraft, Android, and Javascript all have their own channel. || You are being logged.
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