ByteCode.News
Submit RSS Atom Sign in

Back to the channels

#java

  1. * ferdna joined #java
  2. * akaWolf1 joined #java
  3. * Tenchi joined #java
  4. * mindCrime joined #java
  5. * fgarcia joined #java
  6. * m joined #java
  7. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  8. * Nav94 joined #java
  9. * Nav94 joined #java
  10. * hwpplayer1 joined #java
  11. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  12. * stfstfm joined #java
  13. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  14. * Inline joined #java
  15. Para I like how LLMs sometimes as a side effect produce truth bombs. Today's such is "Ansible runs non-interactively and cannot handle sudo password prompts."
  16. Bombe I play EVE Online, and it has a thing called “Ansiblex Jump Gate,” and I have to think of Ansible every time I come across one.
  17. Para That's fitting, as EVE Online's server gave us such coding as horror headless python; a variant of python which doesn't use stack.
  18. Bombe I don’t even know why you would want that.
  19. Para Well, EVE Online's server models the universe's starsystems as individual instances of a python script.
  20. Para So all what happens within one system is managed by one script. Thus scaling is done by just running these instances and in case, say, Jita, gets very resource hungry, move other systems away from that node to another by restarting the system script elsewhere in the cluster.
  21. Bombe What does not having a stack have to do with that, though?
  22. Para This is how it worked originally, the headless part saved memory.
  23. Para This is software design from 20+ years ago, mind you :D
  24. Para I hope they've fixed at least some of that.
  25. Bombe I am aware of most parts of that, yes. Systems are still being moved around between machines, in case of higher load.
  26. Bombe Hmm, isn’t the stack related to threads? Like, every thread has its own stack? Or is that a Java-thing and Python handles it differently?
  27. Para Even a main thread has a stack. Unless you do the headless thing.
  28. * X-Scale joined #java
  29. * stfstfm joined #java
  30. * five618480339176 joined #java
  31. * kathadris joined #java
  32. * magla joined #java
  33. * X-Scale joined #java
  34. * akaWolf1 joined #java
  35. * MikeBux joined #java
  36. Bombe Yeah, well, a main thread is a thread, and as such it would have a stack. But that still explains nothing about the stackless Python. :)
  37. * phlox joined #java
  38. Para Not in stackless python :)
  39. * phlox joined #java
  40. Para Or rather the stack is just a ringbuffer of one. And somehow CCP got it working.
  41. Bombe That still only makes sense if they are multithreading heavily. In Python. Is that what they did?
  42. Para One process per system.
  43. Para So the OS makes it one thread per system.
  44. Para (ish)
  45. Bombe That makes even less sense. If you only have a single thread, it doesn’t matter if you store shit on the heap or on the stack, you need the same amount of memory. [confused]
  46. Para This was the way to multithread python apps for a very long time.
  47. Para With only one stack frame available you don't get tracebacks and all that stuff.
  48. Para So the exceptions thrown would be just "exception thrown: died"
  49. Para Another aspect of EVE's server design has always been that it runs exclusively on RAM disks.
  50. Para They were at one point RamSan's (Texas Memory Systems nowadays) biggest question.
  51. Para ...question, I mean customer. I was reading a doc while typing :D
  52. Para Although their use of RamSan-400's was questionable, as it didn't help with the stability that everything was loaded into RAM, including databases, and stuff either worked or went into cascading multi-system crashes all the time.
  53. Para RAM eviction was effectively the same as randomly dropping some random starsystem out of cluster :D
  54. Bombe CCP have made a lot of questionable decisions over the years… :D
  55. Para The company was founded by an Ultima Online griefing guild which got banned from OSI servers :D
  56. Para So it all fits.
  57. * stfstfm joined #java
  58. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  59. * stfstfm joined #java
  60. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  61. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  62. * stfstfm joined #java
  63. * X-Scale joined #java
  64. Chronos On a related note, I've been wondering why so many developers have been choosing C# over Java for their MMORPG servers.
  65. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  66. dreamreal C# is pretty good, for one thing, and for another, it was better and more responsive to programmers than Java for a long time.
  67. Para Gamedev is Windows based.
  68. dreamreal Microsoft actually had a POINT with J++ - it's just a philosophical question of what's more imprtant. And for MS, and C# users, it was "can we run stuff we want to write?" and Java's answers were "Well, generally, yes, but it's going to be archaic, for one thing, and we're going to continue to cater to two other runtime environments you as a programmer don't actually care about"
  69. Para Lots of tooling is built around .NET these days.
  70. Para It's really not that more amazing or weird than that.
  71. Inline so target + env rather
  72. dreamreal and again, C# *is* pretty good, it learned Java's lessons well, and used those lessons to tie developers to a retarded platform
  73. dreamreal Running .net on nonwindows is possible, of course (see Mono) but it's stupid and I do not forgive Miguel for it
  74. Inline lol
  75. dreamreal Iget the technical challenge and reasoning for it, but he's basically being a lapdog for MS
  76. Para Mono gave us Unity, in a way.
  77. * stfstfm joined #java
  78. dreamreal Aren't we supposed to say that in diversity is strength?
  79. Para Diverse backgrounds coming together for a common cause, not just for diversity alone.
  80. Para ...we had a notion at work this week that people don't bash PHP anymore. It's becoming forgotten.
  81. dreamreal Hell, it's in use everywhere
  82. dreamreal *I* run PHP
  83. dreamreal I don't write much of it - I have one repository done in PHP and honestly it kinda sucks
  84. dreamreal every PHP upgrade I gnash my teeth and grow a beard just so I can tear it... and I update my PHP installation
  85. Chronos Assuming said MMORPG servers run on Linux, wouldn't Java generally be a better choice over C#?
  86. Chronos Or does C# run just as well on Linux these days?
  87. Para They run on Windows Server.
  88. Para It's all horrible.
  89. dreamreal generally yes, and Java's execution profile is BETTER than C#'s, but... what para said
  90. Chronos Para: Oh dear, now that's a terrible idea.
  91. Para Gaming as a profession is dirty.
  92. Para The only important factor is "this runs on as many Windows PCs as possible"
  93. Para (or at least has been until very recently)
  94. Para Note: "runs", not "runs well"
  95. dreamreal runs > not running
  96. dreamreal "runs well" is an afterthought to MVP
  97. dreamreal most java programmers should know that :D
  98. * Ragnor joined #java
  99. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  100. * stfstfm joined #java
  101. * GreenResponse joined #java
  102. dreamreal Well, I have finished The Boys on Amazon.
  103. dreamreal That's it. There's the news.
  104. GreenResponse I know you’re Star Wars fan, have you watched Maul Shadow Lord?
  105. dreamreal I haven't watched any star wars stuff outside of andor season 1 since the last jedi or whatever it was
  106. Para I've been telling dreamreal to watch Andor season 2 several times.
  107. dreamreal I keep wanting to watch andor season 2, it's up next in the queue now that the boys is out of the way
  108. Para The Boys sure had a fifth season.
  109. dreamreal And I'm listening! I just have a queue to get through and I watch it in small bursts
  110. dreamreal Para: right?
  111. GreenResponse I’m into animation, and this is CGI animation a’la Clone Wars, very interesting
  112. Para GreenResponse: It's the same art pipeline they started refreshing after Bad Batch.
  113. dreamreal Hrm. I didn't even watch the clone wars; I watched the sequel trilogy mostly because I hoped they'd find a story to tell but they didn't. Andor was good, though, and Para tells me season 2 is good, but...
  114. Para It's been incremental with the Tales series ever since, and it seems quite obvious they're shifting back to more animation content as it's probably still cheaper than live action and their story telling techniques are more tuned for animation nowadays anyway.
  115. dreamreal I suffered through ST:SA, and apparently they've already filmed season two of THAT
  116. Para And of course Dave Filoni did start doing Spongebob sooo...
  117. dreamreal I don't know how I feel about them having filmed season two of a show that suffered so badly from season one
  118. dreamreal it feels incredibly arrogant
  119. GreenResponse yep, everybody is shredding Mandalorian and Grogu right now…
  120. dreamreal and ST:SA was, um, very pretty to watch but man, what a crap show
  121. dreamreal I can't shred the new movie, haven't seen it and won't judge it without seeing it
  122. Para dreamreal: Star Trek Discovery had one famous line of dialog, "yum yum". The Boys season 5 has just single "yum" as dialog at one point.
  123. Para I'm going to start rating shows by number of yums.
  124. dreamreal Yeah, the writers for s5 kinda, um, blew their wad, one could say
  125. Para Which one even is ST:SA...oh it's the wannabe Rick and Morty.
  126. Para (new season of that starts next week btw)
  127. dreamreal "Let's draw dialogue from the seven words you can't say on television and that's it, let's make it so nobody thinks at all, and let's try to misunderstand the groups we're despising as much as possible"
  128. dreamreal it wasn't even good as an allegory
  129. dreamreal ST:SA is starfleet academy
  130. Para My carrying theory is that Boys s5 budget was so cut that they didn't even do cross checking between episodes.
  131. dreamreal scooby doo taken to the 30th century, including idioms and styles and concerns from 2023
  132. Para There was just one big arc which got cut into pieces and individual episodes were then fleshed out and shot.
  133. dreamreal their set budgets and CGI budgets were bonkers, though
  134. Para Case in point: Ambrosius
  135. dreamreal all that blood
  136. Para Why, that's spoilers. If anyone cares.
  137. dreamreal I was unsatisfied by that storyline
  138. dreamreal not much of a spoiler
  139. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  140. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  141. Para On a big plus, the actors did well IMHO.
  142. dreamreal it was supposed to be "at last, yeesh" but was not, it was just there
  143. GreenResponse Scooby is nice, the best is What’s New and Incorporated, of course
  144. dreamreal apparently anthony starr pushed back on what the writers wanted to do
  145. Para Erin Whatsherlastname of course had kinda dull outcome because of her at the time undiagnosed illness + material given was...I don't know, probably a wet napkin with some scribbles on it.
  146. Para Jack Quaid got the most out of the show, probably.
  147. dreamreal I guess, but they wrecked her character a while back
  148. Para 1) got to show that he can actually act and commit to a character 2) fame 3) a wife
  149. GreenResponse speaking of Starr, Ringo went full country right now
  150. Para (I'm not saying he couldn't act before, he's just got that nepobaby ceiling to break through)
  151. GreenResponse haven’t listened to his latest longplay tho
  152. Para Also I'm delighted that Jack Quaid keeps visiting Red Letter Media doing stupid videos with them :D
  153. dreamreal Ringo Starr can do whatever he wants, it's what you get when you're one of the best drummers in the last century
  154. Para Could even claim the whole millennia. I doubt there's some ancient mesopotamian from 800 years ago who'd be better.
  155. GreenResponse heh, speaking of drummers, Regular Show has been resurrected with Benson the park manager, former drummer of Hair to the Throne
  156. GreenResponse like I said, I’m an animation weirdo
  157. * X-Scale joined #java
  158. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  159. * stfstfm joined #java
  160. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  161. dreamreal Para: well, the purpose of drumming has changed
  162. dreamreal I kinda think Ringo's among the best *and certainly* most influential drummers of modern music
  163. dreamreal in terms of influence there's no comparison, period
  164. dreamreal he's #1 and there's nobody even close. In terms of talent, he's probably top 5.
  165. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  166. * Fiji joined #java
  167. * Fiji_ joined #java
  168. * deavmi joined #java
  169. * ChaiTRex joined #java
  170. * domicron joined #java
  171. * Nav94 joined #java
  172. * MonsterAbyss joined #java
  173. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  174. * stfstfm joined #java
  175. * jreicher joined #java
  176. * MikeBux joined #java
  177. * stfstfm_ joined #java
  178. * stfstfm__2605 joined #java
  179. * kathadris joined #java
  180. * X-Scale joined #java
  181. * hwpplayer1 joined #java
  182. Bombe I heard from a reputable source (The Beatles) that Ringo wasn’t even the best drummer in The Beatles.
  183. GreenResponse yep, he had his limitations
  184. GreenResponse yet, he was band’s mascot, that’s huge role
  185. * MikeBux joined #java
  186. dreamreal Bombe: also very well known to be Paul McCartney taking the piss
  187. dreamreal mein Gott, you guys know NOTHING about drums
  188. dreamreal Ringo was 1) the best drummer in the country when he was in the Beatles and 2) a great drummer, period
  189. Bombe Luckily for us, this is #java, not #drums!
  190. DoofusCanadensis I was starting to wonder
  191. Para dibs on drums4j
  192. Bombe Dibs on jrums!
  193. DoofusCanadensis I vote for the former
  194. Bombe Pff. https://imgur.com/a/oANrxDk
  195. * Munnu joined #java
  196. Bombe Look at my jrums! My jrums are amazing!
  197. Para it could be jRum
  198. Para a highly specialized brewing assistant
  199. Para What can it help you with? Rum. What else? Nothing!
  200. DoofusCanadensis do one thing and do it well
  201. * jonp joined #java
  202. Para hah
  203. Para Amazon Prime's put the final big scene of the Boys to youtube.
  204. Para 3 minute clip
  205. Para Like...what is this marketing strategy, here's the three minutes that matter, please watch our other stuff?
  206. * MikeBux joined #java
  207. * mindCrime joined #java
  208. * dostoyevsky2 joined #java
  209. * avu joined #java
  210. * Betal joined #java
  211. * tabmow joined #java
  212. Chronos Para: I have seen *so many* Windows games that *should* work perfectly fine in 1/4 the RAM + integrated graphics but... don't, because nobody cares about efficiency.
  213. Chronos (Going way back in the conversation there, heh)
  214. Chronos Interestingly... Java MineCraft runs perfectly fine on machines a lot of people would consider potatoes these days.
  215. * X-Scale joined #java