jreicherI'm kind of annoyed I didn't know about dmlloyd's articles when I first started teaching myself java.lang.invoke. There's something about the way the JDK documentation is written that is unpleasant.
jreicherIn the end I reached the "conclusion" about where to start: method handles and "signature polymorphism" (which I put in quotes because I don't actually consider it to be a language feature, since its appearance is so tightly constrained)
jreicherdreamreal: I can't remember where this is from (I suspect it's a fairly well known line) but the adage that "good testing allows developers to be brave" feels appropriate here.
dreamrealThat IS a good adage.
jreicherOh if you haven't heard it before I should find the source.
jreicherProbably Julius Caesar.
dreamrealhmm, what language did HE use, I wonder
dreamrealwas he leet like me? Probably not, given that his co-workers stabbed him - probably python.
jreicherIt's all about what ides you use
dreamrealHe probably used netbeans.
dreamrealor bluej.
ParaIs that why he was stabbed to death?
dreamrealHe probably refused to use six.
jreicherides of march guys. Seriously.
dreamrealProbably all about sex instead.
ParaAnd copious amounts of lead poisoning from everything.
dreamrealWell, he was probably a lead programmer
dreamrealmaybe he was a punjabi! ... yes, that was a pun, and it was hilarious
dreamrealyou know, jabby, and puns, together, and he was stabbed to death
dreamrealetc
dreamrealjreicher: it sounds like you're sort of miquoting kent beck, FWIW
dreamrealit's a really good framing
jreicherVery possible. You have the original?
ParaAunt Beck
dreamrealit's from beck's "extreme programming explained," courage is one of the four original XP values; without tests, changing code is gambling; with them, it's an experiment with a fast feedback loop.
dreamrealbut I don't find the direct adage, but it's a paraphrase that captures the idea better than kent's; I guess he DID haveto fill more pages, though...
ParaXP was kinda odd. It tried its hardest but just didn't stick.
ParaWith a big dose of "But we're already doing things almost like that?"
dreamrealthe nice thing abotu XP is that it's EXTREEEEEEEEMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!11!!!11!!!lol!!!!!omg!!!wtfbbq!!!!!
dreamreal(I use a lot of XP principles in my programming, but Eclipse can take a long walk off a short pier. It works, it's cool, if you like eclipse that's great, but I found the perspectives mindset unfortunate.)
dreamrealand I think using the LABEL XP is a lot different than "XP didn't stick" - the label didn't, I guess. Same for agile, but people use a LOT of those principles in daily life, to the point where they're almost background noise. I think it succeeded better than you might think.
ParaRemember how Microsoft went all "It doesn't mean extreme! >:(" when they released Windows XP.
dreamrealoddly enough, windows XP would have benefitted a lot from XP
Para(the name was chosen by marketing and it was meant to stand for eXPerience, but somehow the corporate site decided that it's something nonsensical instead)
jreicherI've never liked Eclipse, but the whole project was redeemed for me by the language server it's produced. That has made a big difference to my work.
dreamrealEclipse as an umbrella org has been a huge positive for the java ecosystem. Eclipse as a development platform has, too, honestly. And Eclipse has had some GENUINELY good variants: WSAD was actually good if you decided to lean in, myeclipse was the best Eclipse for rank and file developers IMO (and the genuitec guys are GREAT). But eclipse requires you to want to think like beck.
sonOfRaStill use eclipse (actually apache directory studio) a lot, because it's the ~only usable ldap client+browser
jreicherThat's an interesting observation. I might try it; I've never found an ldap utility I liked.
sonOfRait's sometimes a bit annoying to launch, because it's not really developed much anymore. But it still works because it's not like ldap is changing a lot
dreamrealThat's a good reason to avoid LDAP, of course. Good thing JNDI is better and has nothing to do with LDAP at ALL, la la laaaaa I can't hear youuuuuuu
sonOfRadreamreal: tell that to the crazy people putting some form of active directoy in every goddamn company on the planet
dreamrealI SAID I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
jreicherLet's be honest: AD is just a weird DB that backs an LDAP implementation
dreamreal... and it's a good thing none of us remember Log4Shell
dreamrealnot a single one of us, it's almost like you can't literally use LDAP semantics to inject vulnerabilities
Shelljreicher: also their Kerberos extensions are really interesting.
jreicherShell: for LDAP or AD?
ShellAD's
ShellThe LDAP bit of AD is boring :p
jreicherWell Kerberos is definitely interesting. I've always felt like it's a fundamentally "right" design.
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sbalmosdreamreal: y'know, reading Christian's post, one thing I have had in my mind for a long while is the inverse of Google's 20% rule. There should be 20% of a project, or an epic (if you're still into the whole epic/sprint/whatever thing), dedicated to tech debt removal. May not be outright code removal. It might be architectural planning for code removal. Whatever. But intentional tech debt removal in
sbalmositself, and not piling patch on patch on patch, contributes to the DevEx
jreicherWhat is Christian's post, and the 20% rule? I'm very interested in the reduction of tech debt in a corporate environment. Always a tricky thing to achieve.
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Parajreicher: Google used to have on purpose allocated 20% "innovation time", as in one day per week people were allowed to work on whatever as long as they produced something they could later on demo to the whole unit.
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Parajreicher: At least GMail and Google Docs started this way, if I remember correctly. Possibly Google+ as well, maybe Google Reader. Fix my misinfo and check facts with...Google :)
jbosmansseeing talk of google's 20% rule makes me feel really old :)
Parajbosmans: The misimplementations of that were of course even more fun.
Para"We can't spare 20%! That's valuable!" -> somehow we got 10%, and it had to be latter half of Friday.
ParaAlso a calendar invite was sent with name "innovation time"
ParaCorporate mandated 3,5 hours of innovation time. With expectation of results from everyone.
jbosmansyeah, of course i loved the sentiment etc
jbosmansthen, later, i realized the answer to "what's better than a shitton of money"
Paraability to still enjoy life
jbosmans"a bigger shitton of money" etc, aka i guess (sadly) i grew up or something
jbosmansoh yeah sorry, was speaking from google perspective there :)
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sbalmosat a certain level of shitton of money, different for each person's lifestyle, acquiring further shittons of money becomes relatively pointless
jbosmansnot for listed companies i guess
jbosmansalso, it makes one learn, the easiest way to earn more money is to cut costs
jbosmanstalking from a mgmt point of view here now ^
jbosmans5% more profit vs 5% less costs
ParaThere are ways to calculate what one person's pile should be, and for most people the amount is both surprisingly large yet not that huge at all.
ParaThis sum is of course heavily dependent on everything, so what applies to me doesn't apply to you etc. :)
jbosmansyeah, and anyway, everything always needs to be put in it's time & context etc
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ParaAnd all this comes with the dreadful "what then?" problem.
ParaLike...if you were to gain magical lump sum today, what would happen then? Still continue working? Try that dream of yours and find out you liked it more as a fantasy, not as something to actually do?
dreamrealIf I were to win the lottery today, I'd still be a programmer, still write stuff for people to read that I hoped was worthwhile. And I'd probably start a recovery program if I could afford it and the liabilities that came with it; if not, I'd make sure my local food banks and my local libraries were well-stocked.
dreamrealI've been thinking about that recovery program for literal decades, back when I thought I was gonna retire at 30 since I was a programmer and programmers were gonna ALL be rich thanks to IPOs never ending.
ParaI have a sort of a plan like that as well. A pre-divvy of pushing out most of it from my hands because 1) I'm a terrible investor 2) I want to avoid Gollum/Smaug mode, so better donate the money I really don't need ASAP to causes.
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dreamrealI was gonna buy some land and hire people "down on their luck" to work it - give them employment, experience, shelter, food security so they could get on their feet and go elsewhere and live more productive lives
dreamrealwhatever necessary job training such work would require
ParaHaving an orchard or somesuch as rehabilitation workplace wouldn't be terrible.
dreamrealThat way, anyone going by my local food bank would get a "hey, you need employment? Well, I have this that needs doing and *you can do it*" no matter what they were able to do, because I wasn't going to imagine going "wait, no, you're too old, you're too crippled, you're to [wrong whatever]"
dreamrealbut then the idiot company rode out the dotcom bust and that dream kinda ended
dreamreal(I do, however, volunteer at my local food bank, and donate blood when I'm able as well.)
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jbosmansi think so yes, i mostly love what i do <Para> Like...if you were to gain magical lump sum today, what would happen then? Still continue working?
jbosmansnot every minute of every day ofc :)
dreamrealI probably wouldn't change much myself
dreamrealjust the people around me would benefit
ParaI had the silliest moment about two years ago when I got into a fortunate situation where I was both rent and debt free.
ParaHad to point out to a few friends that that doesn't make me a millionaire automagically, it just means I don't have huge money sinks in my life anymore. I can still be poor and debt/rent free.
Para(unless someone's handing out bags of money for everyone who manages to get into this point and I just didn't get the memo)
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mlxdyHi, Java development is possible on Emacs or Vim? Anyone is doing something like this?
mlxdyMaybe I'm not planning to use them for Java, but I'm just curious.
ParaEverything's possible, but you'll save literally years of your life by learning an IDE.
Para~ide
javabotIDE stands for "Integrated Development Environment", and an IDE is basically a tool that helps you write and manage your projects. Most Java IDEs are multi-language, including non-JVM languages. There are two really popular ones (~idea and ~eclipse) and one far less popular one (~netbeans), and a number of others suitable for java, like ~vscode. Generally, use IDEA, Eclipse, or VSCode.
Drixtanmlxdy: I am using vim (not neovim), so yea, that's totally possible
mlxdyDrixtan: Are you doing any advanced Java development in it?
Drixtanwhat's "advanced java development" ?
ParaFWIW for personal use whatever you feel like works for you.
ParaFor corporate environments IDEs will make your life infinitely easier.
DrixtanI highly suggest to use an IDE.
ParaYou can also get the same benefit for your personal life as well, but if JVM isn't your main platform/Java in general isn't the mainstay, it gets more difficult.
ParaClojure users tends to love emacs :P Personally I don't, but alas
mlxdyAlso I would like to ask why you like Java?
ernimrilmlxdy, if you go for vim or emacs you will want to configure a lsp or something like that, it will take a bit to setup
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dreamrealmlxdy: what's not to like? Predictable, excellent performance, easy to write
dreamrealand you can't use emacs to develop java: it requires something that can write text files, so emacs is out
dreamrealyou'd have to have a text editor of some sort, as java source is text
dreamrealI have heard tell, stories really, told about a campfire as wolves howl in the night, of people using things like vi, /usr/bin/joe, even *nano* to write code as in the olden days, almost with quill and ink, but surely that's nonsense
dreamrealcan you guys IMAGINE what it was like to have to know programming languages well enough to just... you know... write them?
Drixtandreamreal: non sense, AI everywhere mate, vibing to the moon 'til dawn
dreamrealoh then emacs is fine
dreamrealwhew
* dreamreal cranks up lucid
DoofusCanadensisi dont think you want to be lucid while doing ai
dreamrealI was talking about lucid emacs, noob
dreamrealif you know me at all, MY lucidity isn't in question
DoofusCanadensisthat was the joke, son
GreenResponseit’s all Matrix fault: 1337 hax0rs writing in text mode, shell and nano
dreamrealin soviet russia, joke tells YOU
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Paradreamreal: you can launch vim from within emacs! it's a text editor
DoofusCanadensisany good OS should be able to launch a text editor, this is true.
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* dreamreal hands DoofusCanadensis the commodore 64
DoofusCanadensisI have one, thanks
dreamrealyou know, now that I think about it, I'm not sure how to use the disk drives on the c64 any more, so much I've forgotten of the old ways
DoofusCanadensisno doubt
DoofusCanadensisI have a coco2 as well... the cassette tapes have probably faded away even if I still had the tape drive
dreamrealWhich c64 do you have? The real one or the ultimate?
DoofusCanadensisthe mini one they shipped a few years ago
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DoofusCanadensisHDMI output and SD Cards with built in games
dreamrealah, cool. I saw those but chose the ultimate, because the form factor and the actual keyboard is part of it, otherwise VICE, etc., are fully sufficient
DoofusCanadensisthe ultimate looks cool, tbh
dreamrealI'm still in that "holy cow, this is awesome" phase - I've been digging up old abandonware games and playing them, like lode runner, stealth, and so forth, doing SOME programming (oscar64 is *surprisingly* useful) but not a ton
dreamrealI haven't tried the turbo cpu mode, even, still lurking in 1mhz mode
dreamrealI am definitely amused by how much fun I'm having with it - my youngest son says "you sound like you're having a blast programming ... a toaster."
dreamrealI would be mad at him about it but he's probably right :D
DoofusCanadensishahahaha
dreamreali showed him stix, and he was like "... and this is supposed to be fun, right?" (he was definitely amused, and definitely poking me about it, and I'm down for it: he ain't wrong.)
DoofusCanadensisyup
Paradreamreal: Sounds like you need to buy a video toaster next so that your kid comments on it again you can get the appropriate dad joke in.
dreamrealhahaha, well, I DID have an Amiga back in the day...
DoofusCanadensisHAH
DoofusCanadensisa new Amiga would be cool
dreamrealI don't think my wife would be down for even more retro hardware, for one thing, and for another, the c64 is enough: I loved my amiga but honestly everything the amiga could do my mac can do WAY better, and I can't say that about the 64
dreamrealDoofusCanadensis: november '26, apparently
DoofusCanadensisoh? neat!
dreamreali never used the toaster on the amiga: I've never been good at visual arts
nevetRoguecraft DX (Amiga) by Thalamus Digital Publishing Ltd.
javabotDrixtan's title: "Roguecraft DX (Amiga) by Thalamus Digital Publishing Ltd."
Drixtanthat game requires 2mb ... look at that beauty for 2mb... we clearly did something wrong in the "evolution" of software programming somewhere between the end of amiga and today.
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dreamrealhell, I'm still playing nethack in ascii mode
dreamrealnethack 5 released, baby!
DoofusCanadensisyeah, I was prompted to play it again
DrixtanI know man, nethack still beats me _all_the_time_; I've never ascended - I suck :(
dreamrealI've never ascended, either
dreamrealbut I tend to play wizards, and they're hard mode
Drixtanyea, priest here, mid range
dreamrealThere's harder - but getting a wizard to the point where they're able to survive is... rough
dreamrealbefore nethack 5 my top 10 was *filled* with priests and fighters but I enjoy playing wizards most :/
Drixtanhow are you supposed to manage your fights at the beginning without any spell / mana? like you totally depend on your pet?
dreamrealyour pet, luck, and time. Pray a lot for food.
dreamrealfind an altar, convert it, magicbane.
dreamrealnethack 5 rebalances stuff, too, so the arc is different; still getting used to that.
Drixtanis it me or 5 generates the dungeons differently? I can't tell exactly, or describe it, but just saying they feel differents like: real dead-end corridors, more hidden passages, more doors
DoofusCanadensisgiven they moved the generation into lua files, the generation *is* totally different
Paraeww, I just had a terrible idea
ParaLua, being of just one of the two prototype based actually popular and stable(ish) languages could model everything through ducktyping.
ParaSo...why not make a dungeon generator by recursively ducktyping "world" prototype.
ParaIt'd be like adventuring into a fractal!
dreamrealyou could do it with clojure pretty easily
dreamrealnethack moved to lua a WHILE back though
dreamreallike early 3.7, maybe 3.6
ParaClojure is still limited by stack...I mean sort of, you can metaprogram it to do that.
ParaThere's actually lisp gamejam soon, so go wild.
ParaThe Macguffin should be an off-brand toy or similar.
ParaLike...Turboman.
dreamrealit's randomly generated, of course.
dreamrealI can create about 500 different scripts in about 700ms. :D
ParaThat's barely enough for this Christmas.
* dreamreal allocates 2000ms.
dreamrealThe story beats are pretty much always the same - I mean, hallmark, right? - but the details are pretty variable
ParaNow we're talking. Here's a million and a greenscreen.
dreamrealand since it's clojure, generating new ones is just a matter of adding a few references here and there
Para...the only reason I'm aware of Hallmark as a concept is Red Letter Media :)
ParaThat said, it is quite silly.
dreamrealhallmark is great
dreamrealMy wife and I are quite amused, often by different aspects: she's always watching for how the quirky companions get abandoned by the script, I'm never sure the story's real until there's a corpse
dreamrealhmm, I'm not sure my script generator can do that one, hmmm
ParaI'm not going to spoil that if you haven't watched the relevant RLM video, but one of their big sale taglines is "from the creator of Money Plane"
dreamrealneed to add a "simultaneous and utterly artificial scheduling conflict"
dreamrealhahahaha
dreamrealI was amused a lot more by hallmark christmas movies before they got all woke and added jewish themes
dreamrealnow I'm offended :D
dreamreal(I am not, but their impression of what makes a storyline jewish is... amusing)
ParaIsn't that a perfect source of conflict? I want to get married on Christmas but I'm Jewish and my rabbi won't allow it! ...or something.
dreamreal"Can we make it a christmas movie, but with jews, so it's got santa claus and... dreidels? And a latke? What's a latke, BTW?"
Shelllmao what
dreamrealso... yeah, I watch the hallmark jewish movies like a hawk
ParaAnd of course since it'll be made by people who don't really know anything about the whole thing, the wedding party gets confused with bar mitzvah with elements from quinceanera because someone thought it looks pretty.
dreamrealThey're hilarious even when they're not meant to be funny
dreamrealyeah, pretty much
dreamreal"Can we have the main love interest say 'oy vey?' is that enough?"
dreamrealIf *I* made a hallmark jewish movie, I'd have them speak yiddish, but with overdubs, so they'd say the english words and the sound would use the overdubs so the words didn't match
dreamreal... anyone with connections here? Come on, hook a schlomcha up
dreamreal(other jews in the channel: shut up, it's a joke)
ParaOh yeah, unnecessary word drops are a must.
Para"I am French therefore I say le every now and then."
dreamreal"See what I have to deal with heah? oy vey. Shabbat shalom. Goyische."
ParaFrom a very convoluted etymology POV you just said part of my real name, btw :)
dreamrealstop being selfish, this is all about me
ParaAlthough I very much doubt the story, it felt very backported.