* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news
dreamrealHmm, the reference UI is kinda brittle, I think. :/
* blue joined #nevet
dreamrealyo blue
dreamrealgood shabbos
bluehi dreamreal, good shabbos
dreamrealbytecode.news is up
dreamrealnot well
dreamrealbut up
blueI see
dreamrealI, uh, am happy it's working fsvo "working" but.. yeah, it's labeled a reference UI and that's pretty accurate :D
bluegreat
Chronosdreamreal: Is email-based sign-in up and running?
dreamrealshould be, I'm using it
dreamrealcheck spam
dreamrealif you NEED I can give you the code
ChronosAh, yep. It was in Spam. Thanks.
* dreamreal flexes with direct DB access
ChronosMy "report not spam" on Google should help.
dreamrealyeah, unfortunately there was a wordpress site on my server that, uh, had open registrations
dreamrealso my mailq tended to be >800 full.
dreamrealhas been fixed.
dreamrealSo how's it responding? The site blows, IMO, for various reasons, but should be *functional*
ChronosIt seems far more responsive than most websites so far.
dreamrealit's SPA. It has an initialization condition that hurts it, and it's not especially SEO friendly
ChronosAh. Even on initial load, it seemed pretty close to instant to me.
Chronosdreamreal: Does the website require reauthentication when it's closed and reopened?
ChronosAh, never mind.
Chronos"We use browser local storage (not cookies) to store your authentication token after login. This keeps you signed in between page loads. The token expires after 24 hours and is cleared when you log out."
dreamrealthat turns on and off various sections on the SPA
ChronosThe Knowledge Base page has a spinner that appears to spin forever
dreamrealyes, that keeps showing up and I hate UI development
dreamrealI hate that spinner so much
dreamrealit's mostly related to the editor, I think
dreamrealI don't know vite - that UI is vibe coded a LOT
dreamrealthe MVP was "hit as much of the rest services as we need to to make this all work" and it is indeed an MVP - the karma thing still needs to be done but karma boards are just like the knowledge base in terms of complexity, there's no "there" there
ChronosNo RSS Feed page yet, though I assume that's intentional
dreamrealI found a *few* things in the backend services that needed to change, because of the UI requirements, but overall the delta was pretty small
dreamrealit is not intentional, I have a plan for enabling it (everything's built, just not wired)
ChronosI also assume Search is not all hooked up yet
dreamrealI got this thing online by hurling it over the finish line late last night
dreamrealWhy would search not be hooked up?
ChronosAh, hmmm. Haven't gotten it to successfully find anything yet
dreamrealthe only thing that isn't real on that sidebar is the karma
ChronosOh wait, I see
ChronosNever mind, I misunderstood search
ChronosI was thinking it searched factoids too, whereas it searches blog posts.
ChronosAlthough I was surprised to see "dreamreal" turn up nothing ;)
dreamrealoh, it's not searching author, I guess
dreamrealfile a bug!
ChronosOh no, Comments has the eternal spinner too, heh
dreamrealthat's the editor
dreamrealgrrr
Chronosoops, 404 when attempting to change my display name to Chronos
dreamrealthat should work (I've done it) and if it's not working, something broke
dreamrealsee, now it's blocking for me too :D I'm already planning out a revision of the UI, the reference UI needs to exist but I want something good
Chronoswill do
Chronosdreamreal: Do you want an issue for the infinite spinners too?
dreamrealSure, but I know it's there already and it's UI shit and I have now done more UI than I have done in the last decade
ChronosErr, I bet I just created this issue on the wrong thing...
ChronosI created it for jottinger/bytecode.news — hopefully that was the correct place?
dreamrealno, it's there
dreamrealsee /topic, that's right
dreamrealyou did it good
dreamreal~ Chronos ++
nevet~ Chronos now has karma of 1.
dreamrealgrr
dreamrealChronos: ++
nevetChronos now has karma of 4.
dreamrealI *really* want nevet to be so kick-ass that javabot gets kicked to teh curb and I get ~ back
dreamrealIt won't happen because javabot's a playground for cheeser and he uses it to push morphia, sofia, and a few other tools forward
dreamrealI made a decision a while back that I wasn't going to contribute more to javabot :/
bluecheeser is a tard
bluelibtard prolly, too
dreamrealnothing about the technology but I think the design is limited and unfixable in its scope, and then there's the occasional flareups with cheeser
dreamrealblue: chill, chronos and I have known cheeser for a long long time
bluethen just say you don't like cheeser
dreamrealand I know him IRL
dreamrealI do like cheeser
blueI don't
dreamrealthat's fine, you don't know him
dreamrealnobody's asking you to like him
bluethe one time I went into java he bullied me, so he can go to hell and burn there
dreamrealyeah, definitely a reason to condemn someone
dreamrealthe world is full of condemned people, that's how it goes
bluethe world is also full of bullies
dreamrealsure, it's like tikkun olam has a purpose
bluethis guy is beyond that
dreamrealhe has concerns that you do not know about
bluehis concerns do not interest me, and give him no reason to be bully
dreamrealI'm sure. But at the same time, YOUR conflict with him does not interest ME, and gives you no reason to bully him even in absentia. :D
bluegood, I'll shut up
dreamrealdid you see that HWFO diatribe I wrote? :D
dreamrealthat whole conversation was AMAZING, and I kept thinking "oh thank god blue is not here"
blueno? where? I don't visit HFWO anymore
blueHWFO*
dreamrealdiscord
dreamrealI actually warned BJ about the thread - the discussion had a lot of the things he actually worries about
bluedude
blueI need to maintain a list of morons
blueand do you know who would come out on the VERY top
dreamrealwhy? Have a list of non-morons, it'll be far shorter
blueeven BEFORE cheeser?
dreamrealbiden? talarico?
blueBJ
dreamrealharris? clinton?
dreamrealhah
* dreamreal slaps blue on a list of morons
blueBJ is EXACTLY what this wall of text you sent me talks about
bluethe idea that if america were just isolationist and never dip its hand in the friggin gooplake, all would be good
dreamrealBJ is a man without a home, is the problem
bluein what universe is that my problem
dreamrealand he sees it, and worries, and can't see past the fact that he's without a home
dreamrealit's not, until you make it your problem
blueI'd say he's eaten what he's cooked
dreamrealeveryone does!
bluegood for him
dreamrealso do I, so do you!
blueyeah well I never claimed moral ambiguity, that I can tell you
blueI never said, maybe we won't bomb iran because there's one good man there
bluethat's the story, isn't it?
dreamrealI don't know what you actually think about the situation
dreamrealI'm anti-war on principle but not pacifistic to no end: if you have a bad dog, it doesn't matter if it's your neighbor's dog and hasn't attacked your kids, you do something about it
blueit doesn't really matter as long as I have a position
bluethat's the problem, the libertarians are actually worse than the wokelibs
dreamrealwell, a lot of those people have positions too: it's "what costs me less in the short term" and I find that ineffective and said so
bluenot having a position is the worst of all worlds
blueit's this pure nihilism as escpoused by BJ and his folk that puts him on the block for me
blueespoused*
bluethat's why I left HWFO
blue"ya I'll throw you both out of my house"
dreamrealI get that: like I said, the whole discussion is "interesting" with some fascinating emergence. (Steigman started it!)
bluewelp, it's great he doesn't HAVE a house to throw people out of now, how's that for a spinning for you, BJ
dreamrealby "house" here I mean a place where he belongs, not an actual house, for the record
dreamrealI'm just as unhomed but I know where I should belong, I think
blueyes I know, and the point still holds, perhaps all the more so
bluehe doesn't have a house to throw me out of, because he has no values
dreamrealOh, sure he does: and he might, because of the fact that you're committed to your values! (Or he might not: Steigman is committed, too.)
bluehe 'values' boil down to "I don't wanna deal with actual contending matters of life"
bluehis*
dreamrealI disagree: his scope is just far narrower than it should be
bluehe's a total copout; and that makes him worse than cheezer the wokelib, who might have values, even if they're deranged
bluewhat's his scope? "my kids"?
dreamrealokay, chill, for one thing
bluethat's a terrible scope
dreamrealfor another, cheeser's values are actually a lot less concrete than BJ's are
blueI'm perfectly chill
dreamrealthen remember that these people are still my friends
bluedo you expect me to cut your friends slack because they are your friends? you know this is not how we roll, that's why timon's timon
dreamrealI think you should show some freaking respect, sure
dreamrealI don't care if you still disregard them: the disdain is actually philosophically really interesting, because of why
bluerespect is earned, and none of those I talked about he earned any respect, in my interactions with them
bluehas earned*
dreamrealSure, but I'm asking you to respect ME. If you choose not to, that's fine... but there it is, innit
blueI'm *NOT* gonna transitivise YOUR respect for them, if that's your expectation
dreamrealDid I say that? I did not. Disregard them. Feel what you feel. Think what you think.
dreamrealI mean, in a lot of ways, you're mapping to the pardes: BJ is acher, cheeser would be... ben zoma?
bluemhm
dreamrealit's kinda sad: four went in, one came out... and in the real world, it'd be more like 99,999 went in, and one came out. Lots of achers, ben zomas, ben azzais. I know which one I think *I* map to.
blueshammai
blueyou're WAY too nice for this world
bluealmost to a fault
dreamrealME? Huh. Shammai was the mean one! Hillel was the nice one.
bluecertain to a fault
bluedid I say shammai? I meant hillel, obviously
dreamrealI was wondering!
bluewell, you certainly fit the "speak less and do more"...
dreamrealI think it's more along the lines of "I forgive much, because that's a good impulse and it helps the world turn more easily for everyone," maybe with a distant hope that others will go "hey, that seems to keep him fairly regulated, maybe I should try that sometime"
blueya well, I almost never forgive at all, particularly when I'm offended, which happens never
bluemostly because you can't offend me, only mine
dreamrealWell, when I'm ACTUALLY offended I can hold on to anger like a dog with its last bone. But I haven't gotten truly angry in years. Irritated, sure - that post on discord is a FINE example of me taking off the gloves.
blueit does NOT read as a HFWO convo though, I was sure that bounded off that xeet
dreamrealChronos: if you want to see what I'm talking about, BTW, I can send to you in email if you like
bluebounced*
dreamrealoh, it definitely was, but there were lots of confused people in the conversation, all desperate to avoid justification for iran
dreamrealthe core thing was "I don't like it" salted liberally with "It's not REALLY my problem" and "I don't know how it'll end, so it shouldn't have started" with an occasional spice of "the jews did it"
dreamrealSawa got mad at me for saying "we" when referring to the joint operation. "Who's WE? You israeli?"
dreamreal(not a quote, but even so.)
bluethere's a certain wing of the maga movement that is just as terrible as the wokeleft. they hate jews, and their 'concerns' seems to be wholly contained within the lines of american soil
blueonto which wing I most wholeheartedly include BJ and his rotten ilk
bluesteigman is just a useful idiot
blueprobably a kapo in another universe
bluelike, 99.99%
dreamrealthat low?
dreamrealI keep dropping authentic judaism in that thread like I'm introducing it to goyim at shul - "So, Jonathan, here's what Judaism is about" because I can't resist poking at him.
bluedid you ask him if his KKK application went through already?
dreamrealno, he'd never join the KKK, too white
dreamrealall those WHITE sheets? How racist can you be?
bluehe's a democrat, they started the KKK :P
dreamrealYou do know *I* almost joined the KKK, though, right?
bluemaybe you soul-switched with steigman for a while
dreamrealUnlikely :D
blueheck, steigman is so bad he almost makes *me* an antisemite
dreamrealEh, he's just a purely performative Jew, using his Jewish roots as a way to flagellate himself
blueyes, that's the point, thank you for literally repeating it
dreamrealI like repeating points, and being thanked for repeating them even with more effective framing is a dopamine SHOT
blueyou do realise you're making my points much less subtle, right
dreamrealSure, I'm reframing them for myself
blueya
dreamrealI think I'm gonna capture that whole exchange for posterity
dreamrealIt's AMAZING, dude
dreamrealit reads like sophistry but it's pilpul
blueon HWFO?
dreamrealyeah
blueI often calls the AI 'm8', and it loves it for some reason
dreamrealoh, now that the backend is online I can enable the webhooks!
ChronosWho is BJ?
Chronosdreamreal: Sure, please send an email, I'm curious
dreamrealHe's the guy who runs a slack
dreamrealSorry for formatting
dreamrealSome of the players: Steigman is an idiot, a Jew who never saw a pro-Jewish position he wouldn't advocate against
Chronos"We are witnessing history. Iran, to everyone's surprise, is destroying American bases so thoroughly, on such a large scale, and so decisively that the world is not ready for this." — Is this true? Iran is destroying American bases so thoroughly and effectively?
Chronos(I've been largely staying under my rock purposefully.)
dreamrealThey're destroying american bases so thoroughly that we've seen a rather drastic 0% decrease in effectiveness. Maybe even 0.0001%!
dreamrealThe person who tweeted, BTW, had a russian flag in their bio
dreamrealI think he's right: the world was not ready for Israel and America to BOTH be cruising over Iran as if there was no resistance whatsoever. We dismantled first-line russian and chinese defenses in ... I mean... 20 minutes?
dreamrealI mean, mein Gott. We have B-52s flying over Tehran. B-52s! Their formal name is the "Buffalo" - but the informal name is "easy target." You don't fly those over an enemy unless you've left air *supremacy* behind in the dust.
dreamrealSorry, BUFF - Big Ugly Fat Fellow. :D
dreamrealSo, to answer you directly: it's VERY untrue in the sense that the author meant it. It's surprising, yes, in that we expected it to be a LOT harder. Instead it's involved effort that LOOKS LIKE a white-hot knife through particularly warm butter. It's not that way - both Israel and America are being careful and determined - but the effect is the same.
Chronosdreamreal: You think reports of U.S. bases being thoroughly destroyed is mostly propaganda?
dreamrealAnd no, Iran has scored a few hits - there are dead on our side - but those hits have been performative.
dreamrealUh... with all due respect, I can guarandamtee it
dreamrealMy day job is in signals analysis
dreamrealit's really really hard to hide something like that
dreamrealand that's not something that requires "insider knowledge" which I do not have anyway
blueChronos: persians are known liars
dreamrealIRGC, not persians: I know a few iranians
bluesame thing atm
Chronosdreamreal: Signals analysis! Interesting.
dreamrealNot really
Chronosblue: Hmmm.
* blue calls out on dreamreal for pilpul
dreamrealNo, the IRGC is a 130k large cadre in control in Iran: they act AS IRAN. I know at least four iranians who hate the IRGC with white-hot passion... as muslims.
bluewelp, time to rise up, it's now or never
blueah wait, not happening...
dreamrealAgreed, although they're HERE, not THERE
blueguess they're fine with the IRGC
blueoh, you mean EXPATS
bluewell
bluethat doesn't count
dreamrealOh, bullshit
Chronosdreamreal: Do you think Iran can successfully bankrupt the U.S.? For example, send in a lot of cheap drones, that require expensive countermeasures.
dreamrealThat's like saying "you can't say 'we Jews' unless you're in Israel, you coward, you fled" - that's not how anything works. They left and fled BECAUSE they matter.
dreamrealChronos: no.
bluedreamreal: yes; though the point is 'we Israelis'. when I talk about Israelis, I mean Israelis IN ISRAEL, not expats
dreamrealblue: I get it, but your characterization was broad and I take exception to it.
bluebroad characterisations UNDERPIN reality
dreamrealChronos: there's a lot of fearmongering. It's ridiculous. Iran is *flailing*. Flailing is effective in part because it's unpredictable... which means the results are naturally self-limiting as well. In terms of pounds-to-pressure, Iran is worse than a paper tiger at this point.
bluecurrently, as long as iranians aren't toppling this terrorist regime, they're SUPPORTING it. that's how it is. I'm not calling them cowards or evil per se, but they ARE supporting it
bluethat's just factual
dreamrealAnd they've also ALREADY severed their command structure, which means their CEILING is a set of messy warlords all fighting amongst themselves, with a *titular* head somewhere... and we keep hitting the head *and* the warlords
dreamrealblue: I hear you. They need to be enabled and act on it.
bluethis applies everywhere, btw. gazans... are the BEST example.
blueare they all terrorists? no. do most of them support/are fine with hamas? YES. 10000000% YES.
dreamrealYeah, the gazans are... going to be difficult to uncorrupt. It's not about getting them on "our side," as much as it is "We really want them to value seeing their kids grow up."
blueplease note that even in PUBLIC polls, even after over TWO years of war, there is still an ABSOLUTE majority supporting them, and a SIZABLE majority thinking 7/10 was GREAT
dreamrealAware. Wrote about it.
blueyou CANNOT undo this insanity, you gotta write it off as done&done, next generation, go the desert you old lot
Chronosdreamreal: I really hope you're right!
dreamrealOr demand that they show the next generation by example...
Chronosblue: Is it feasible for the Iranian people to overthrow the Iranian government? Doesn't the Iranian government have a monopoly on weapons there?
dreamrealChronos: well, I don't know the future, but so far, the US/Israel effort has been generational in success rate - that doesn't mean something CANNOT go wrong, but their capabilities have NOT improved (so to speak: more like their capabilities were headshotted out of the gate and have gotten far far far worse every day) and their capability to recover sans air supremacy is... well.. let's just say I'm
dreamrealnot a betting man, but I'd bet heavily against it.
dreamrealI'd be willing to bet the mortgage against it, actually.
bluewe are told that kin liability, or guilt by association, is WRONG. but is it really wrong? isn't it your job as a PEOPLE to root out those of you who are dragging you into the abyss? and if not, is it not YOUR fault as well for having FAILED to do that?
bluewhat's the ACTUAL argument against guilt by association?
dreamrealChronos: they went from 100% capacity to about 3% on day one - in the first few hours. And it's gone down from there. China and Russia could both weigh in, I suppose... but that'd be a LOT of escalation from them *and* we've just shown what our actual platforms can do. In broad daylight. In other news, did you know night falls once a day?
dreamrealAnd we went into Tehran *against* Russian and chinese defenses. It's a meme already: "If you have a chinese anti-stealth radar, you can immediately tell a stealth plane is in the arena because it blows up."
blueChronos: everything is feasible. Your real epithet is 'is it worth it'. Iran has over 90 million people. as dreamreal noted, the SUPERBADDIES are well under a million. in terms of action economy, this is totally doable, likely though at grave costs to the unarmed population
blueit's time for them to take their fate into their own hands, regardless how brutal the regime is
dreamrealAlso worth noting: for better or for worse, apparently we ARE trying to get some involved locals to act, including material support
dreamrealbut yes
Chronosblue: I feel like "help the people rise up" regime change wars have been tried before, and almost all (or perhaps entirely all) fail.
ChronosIn the Middle East, at least.
blueChronos: that *is* true, therefore trump demanding unconditional surrender is not a bad move. fixed Germany, fixed Japan
dreamrealChronos: you're echoing some of the discussion from that thread :D
dreamrealbut yes, there are paths, and they're gonna hurt the people who surrender
dreamrealsucks to be them, they're the ones who made the choices
blueChronos: but consider this. this is currently the *worst* of all worlds re Iran. There can be no possible *worse* alternative. we're at the stage where even a civil war is better than what they have, which is a terrorist regime both inwards and outwards
dreamreal"We're going to pick a fight with someone who we're sure won't have the will to fight back." Not a bad bet, given the past 50 years.
blueif you understand we're in the worst of all worlds re Iran, you see how clear this war was necessary, & welcome
dreamrealAnd yes, an Iran where they have to pick up the wreckage and rebuild an evil institution is still having to rebuild from parts rather than finishing a job
blueand just to be clear; there ARE worse worlds than a civil war world, we have been shown that MANY a time in the past
bluean American world that accepted and perpetuated slavery would have been much worse than the civil war world
dreamrealDid you see where the IRGC said "if you oppose us we will shoot your children?"
blueif DJT saw this and said, "this IS the worst of all worlds, we have an adversay who 1) says he wants to kill us and 2) is actively working towards that 3) kills anyone in his own ranks who doesn't want that, then you see how clearly this war flows from it
dreamrealWell, to be fair, they said it yesterday or so, not before. So it's them trying desperately to hold on to control, not an additional assault.
bluethe beauty of a 'rock-bottom' world is that it paints a clear path forward, because you don't have to worry about hitting anything lower
bluetake Russia, for example. Why not attack them, are they not just as evil? Well, there is a worse world there; for example, one where they use nuclear weapons
dreamrealall the more reason to not let Iran get nuclear weapons. And oddly enough, gutting Iran makes Russian attacks on Ukraine MUCH harder to prosecute, thanks to fuel and drones.
blueso whilst the "Russia is decimating the Ukraine" is a TERRIBLE world, it's not the WORST of all
dreamrealIt's kinda funny, innit? The same people shrieking "help ukraine!!!!" say "noooo don't hit IRAN!" when hitting Iran actually helps ukraine more than almost anything else
blueya well, maybe they need to go to game theory 101
blueor to college
blueor to high school
blueor to kindergarten
blueanything would do at this stage
dreamrealNah, they're just looking at their bank accounts and who pushes a narrative they've accepted. And disputing that narrative might involve "thought" or "a conscience."
blueI think the thing they don't get the most are iranian expats demonstrating FOR the war, with Israel/US flags
blueit's really hard for them to process when ACTUAL people demonstrate for ACTUAL things that concern them PERSONALLY in the world, and aren't some larpers paid by NGOs
dreamrealThey can't escape it much: every time they gather to mourn Iran, with their septum piercings and pride flags, "it's so sad that a government that would shoot us all and hang us by our entrails and hate everything we value is being attacked!!!!!," actual Iranians gather and shout them down :D "Chickens for KFC," indeed.
bluehah
dreamrealAnd it's like KFC is saying "We want to be everywhere, including where all them chickens are, yum. But those chickens are haram, we'll kill them without a second thought, but they're useful *for now"
dreamrealI'm trying to avoid disdain, but ... dang
blueI think they forgot that just a mere few years ago, Iran's president claimed at the UN that Iran has no gay people
bluebut that's ok! it's all good because we can demonstrate for the poor gazans and feel good in our own bodies!
bluewe saved the world!
bluenow the gazans won't throw us from roofs anymore!
dreamreal... except they would. You know, I wonder what Greta's pronouns are.
bluesock/puppet
dreamrealblue: ++ hahah that's pretty good
nevetblue now has karma of 3.
dreamrealBut you know, if she comes out as they/them or *gasp* turns out to be a lesbian or whatever, it'd be hilarious. We should DEFINITELY let the flotilla on through. :D
blueshe'll need to flee gaza and ask for asylum in... israel
blueoh the irony, oh man, that's a perfect world
dreamreal(actually, no: I'm sure they rather politically astute on the other side would see her as politically useful and protect her from what the rank and file would endure, and everyone would go "but they let THAT muppet survive, are they all that bad?")
blueuntil the cycle repeats itself, arab infighting begins, and she becomes a sex slave ISIS-style
dreamrealI actually kinda hope she's asexual, though. Yikes. Can you imagine her as a sexual being? She'd be conducting oral sex with her teeth, snarling the whole time about how unfair everything is.
blueI can't imagine her being sexually attractive to other humans
dreamrealI haven't tried and don't want to.
bluey'know, I think climate alarmism is stupid
bluebut I'd at least have had some respect for her if she STAYED IN HER DAMN LANE
dreamrealdiataxis
nevetDiataxis is a way of thinking about and doing documentation. It's a quadrant of tutorials/explanation, how-to vs reference. What to write, how, and how to organize it. Should guide all documentation. Doesn't. URL: https://diataxis.fr/ Tag: documentation
dreamrealarticle Diataxis
nevetIdea session started: "Diataxis". Use 'content <text>' to add body paragraphs, 'done' to save, or 'cancel' to discard.
dreamrealcontent Diataxis (https://diataxis.fr) is a way of thinking about and doing documentation. It establishes four needs, and four forms of documentation: tutorials, how-to guides, technical reference, and explanation.
nevetContent block #1 added to "Diataxis". Use 'content <text>' to add more, or 'done' to save.
dreamrealcontent It solves problems related to content (what to write), style (how to write it), and architecture.
nevetContent block #2 added to "Diataxis". Use 'content <text>' to add more, or 'done' to save.
dreamrealcontent It should guide most documentation efforts - and the sad thing is, it doesn't.
nevetContent block #3 added to "Diataxis". Use 'content <text>' to add more, or 'done' to save.
dreamrealdone
nevetIdea saved as draft: "Diataxis" (3 content blocks).
dreamreal++
dreamrealnew feature, y'all! And with the site online, IT WORKS.