bluedreamreal has been around too many san fransciso people :P
dreamrealdreamreal doesn't get caught up in such crap. It's a label. github has defaults and I don't care to signal to YOUR group any more than I care for others'. Deal.
bluedreamreal: you implicitly do get caught up in such nonsense, whether you like it or not, if you give in to woke insanity
blueyou just choose to frame as I don't care :P
dreamrealIt ends up allowing THEM to control you (or me) just as much as anything else
dreamreal"Oh no they declared pink a gay color now I despise pink"
dreamrealI literally do not care
dreamrealI don't care to serve the "unwoke" crowd any more than I care to serve the "woke" group
blueshrug; changing the default branch will take 10s of your life. which you contend is getting 'caught up' in stuff. master has been the default for forever; it doesn't represent the unwoke crowd, it represents the baseline; it's what git itself uses (at least until v3), and it what the official git documentation uses
blueI used it well before woke was a thing and will use it longer after it's completely burnt down
dreamrealThen do so! I find that ten seconds to be nothing but serving a particular master, and I don't LIKE masters
dreamrealso I stick with 'main' as it costs me nothing and has no meaning for me other than a default
dreamrealI know of ONE person who really gets caught up in it now and... he's on this channel
blueI will quote the terrible barack obama, who got ONE thing right in his own life: "not choosing is also a choice"
dreamrealI've worked with people who were rabid that 'master' was offensive; I thought it was silly but spending three days arguing over the semantics was more than I cared about: I needed them to be able to hold their noses and work
* dreamreal nods at Neil Peart
dreamrealI want my choices to matter and this one doesn't
dreamrealI've already spent more energy on it this morning than I have in the last year, except every other time you bring it up
blueit doesn't matter they think master is offensive. if they think it is, they're morons. but this was a non-problem until the woke crowd came along. we used to be able to talk about master as the canonical branch, and there's no good reason to pay any tax on that now
dreamrealIt's not a problem NOW
blueit is
dreamrealit does not HURT us to talk about main vs master
bluebecause when I fork your problem, I need to rename it, because all my scripts and tools use master
blueyour project*
bluethere is no way to know the default branch in git, because there is no one. in lack of that, tools need to be wired somehow, and main branches break that assumption
blueyou're making people's lives unnecessarily harder with this
dreamrealOh man
dreamrealOkay, it's a good thing to start your morning off with a laugh
blueI literally spent a day debugging one of my tools the other day because someone moved to main
dreamrealyou should have led with that
bluemaybe it's a non-problem to you, to me it is
dreamrealI get it
dreamrealI see "moving to main" in 2026 CE ridiculous
dreamrealbut I see "moving to master" just as ridiculous :D
dreamrealit's virtue signals all the way down.
dreamrealWhat % frum are you?
dreamrealhurry up, I need to know before I can look at your issue, it might not be kosher enough!
dreamrealoh wait I don't care
dreamrealsolved
blueit's funny how people complain all the time you need standards to work more effectively together, and then they are quicker than lightning to rid themselves of the one quasi-standard we had no problems with
dreamrealit's also amusing to me that deploying from a dev branch (and leaving it there, which is what I had done) was less of an issue than the main branch's name :D
dreamrealWell, some people, some very NOISY people, got caught up in it
dreamrealI find main vs master an asshole issue, and were it to come up in an interview I'd disqualify the candidate
bluewhy? it's a standards issue, your framing is completely wrong
bluegit has no default branch, so a convention is in order
bluethis is not hard to understand
dreamrealIt's the wrong standard to care about
blueis it really?
blueI work with git daily
dreamrealRight, and it has defaults, and I never bothered to change it
blueseems like something I should care about it
dreamrealwhen master switched to main in github, I didn't care and don't care about it
blueso you don't care when others make choices for you, is that what you're saying? because you seemed to indicate something else above
dreamrealAsshole move: "Romans need to drive on the side of the road I like" non-asshole move: "What side of the road do Romans drive on?"
bluesomething about not serving any masters and so on
dreamrealI seem to remember someone's anger about libertarianism and how horrible pedantic libertarianism is
blueyes, when libertarianism doesn't deal with real life morals. this isn't applicable here
dreamrealThis isn't a real life moral :D
blueI can't convince you, but let me tell you that as a principle, I don't work with main branches, so I'll be sending PRs from my master fork, which you probably have no problem with, since that's the side of the road I drive on?
dreamrealand there's an actual difference: nobody's standing across from those peoples' yards stabbing puppies, so your rage at their imagined reaction in the drawing room is unnecessary. Pony up and stab a REAL puppy and see how they react, then judge. (And then burn, because... puppies.)
* dreamreal won't care, because he is capable of managing more than one worldview as a paradigm for others at a time
blue(I like puppies though, why should I stab them)
dreamrealissue PRs away, I'll be fine
dreamrealto make a point, of course
dreamrealpoint's there, gotta make it!
dreamrealcan't allow others to possibly be willing to say something they don't accept in the real world
bluenah that's not my style. it's just my all dev tools are wired to master and I'm not willing to change that
blueI will also generally call it master, fyi, even if it's called differently, because that's the side of the road I drive on!
bluenot willing to spend any mental energy on maintaining two terms for what should be one
dreamrealAnd I will SOMEHOW be able to integrate that, so when you do, I'll manage... bleeding... on the side of the road... "he said... 'master'... aaaaagh"
blueyes
bluefunnily: had you created the branch locally first (the normal git flow) you'd already have a problem :P
bluewell, branch/repo, I mean
dreamrealI do so appreciate how you think how you do it is the only normal way
blueit's not. but it's the standard git way
blueI do create repos using gh too
dreamrealIt's your standard git way. I haven't used git init in a long time.
blueregrettably though, we have a generation of devs who equoate git with github, which is really dumb
bluedumb & dangerous, I should say, given it's microsoft
dreamrealThis is part of why I do tech interviews the way I do, incidentally: I'll be kinda ridiculous on purpose. One interview that I particularly enjoyed, I said "pardon me, I'm gonna use a terrible scottish accent for this interview" and continued... in my normal slightly-southern drawl. The interview actually stopped me to point out that that wasn't a scottish accent - and I said "well, it's a REALLY
dreamrealTERRIBLE scottish accent." His reaction told me a lot about how the interview was going to go, because it signals some of the things he cares about. (He did fine; another person argued with me about it.)
bluedreamreal: that's a fine difference, which is: you paying someone to do something vs FOSS. At work, I'm using mac, I also work with java. Both things I probably wouldn't do it privately. So if my employer used main, I wouldn't care: he's paying me for his nonsense. This is completely different in projects I contribute my free time to, I hope you understand the distinction, or it has merit
bluethere's a fine difference*
bluetherefore, your rant about prospective employees is irrelevant here, because we're of the same opinion. If a candidate told me he has a problem with main (or master), I'd see it as a negative point. I'm PAYING him to shut up about branch names
dreamrealDude, I have no intention of forcing you to do anything you don't want to do, regardless of your reason for not wanting to do it
dreamrealI don't want to even ASK you to do what you don't want to do
blueI understand. But understand some things are IMPLIED. You use main, that's fine: if I want to contribute, the implied request is "use main". I can't force you to switch, so the compromise is me using a fork instead of committing directly. Same for docker: I can't use docker, but I'm not going to start sending PRs for nspawn, and at the same time, I still need to get it working locally, which is why I enlisted
bluephaleth's help, because I absolutely SUCK at devops
bluemy devops skills are so bad that I'd rather install things on the host than mess around with docker bridges. I'm TRYING to fix this on the new computer, hence why I asked him to help
dreamrealI suck at devops right along with you. ANy time I can find a competent devops guy who's invested, they're golden. i know some people who're absolutely RIDICULOUS IRL whose oddities I endure because 1) they're still people but 2) devops
blueregardless of the master/main discussion, I'm REALLY missing an ordinary workflow where issues=branches, and committing to master isn't possible
blue(not in nevet: as a general thing, I mean)
dreamrealI'm about to switch nevet to requiring PRs to merge to main, it's getting stable enough where that is going to start mattering
blueGH is doing something similar, but only in the backend; issues and PRs are in the same DB table in GH, and issues get branches created for them, they just don't advertise that
bluebut my ideal flow is: issue #1 is created; system creates issue/1, as soon as the issue is accepted by maintainers; push access: OP+maintainers+assignees. merging access: maintainers
bluethe GH distinction of issue/PR is very, very confusing to me
dreamrealWell, a given issue can have multiple PRs
dreamrealmultiple branches
bluethat's my point: an issue *needs* to be a PR; one branch, with potentially multiple commits. nothing stops you from creating subbranches for that
bluean issue is a full item of work, IOW
dreamrealWhat if there are multiple ways to address the issue?
blueconcurring implementations?
dreamrealLike, one person does it with a database, another does it with threads, another person says "ooo here's my chance to use rust"
bluethe means the issue is too broad. it's really three issues
* dreamreal sighs, watching the humor fly past blue
dreamrealOkay, fine, let's be a little more limited: one person does it with a subselect, the other with a view, and the third does a brute force that actually handles timeseries better: all actually address the issue in scope, but have different strengths and weaknesses: issue is the same, three branches, three PRs, maybe more because aliens.
blueis this a real thing: if you're working in a team, you'd discuss this aforehand. why would you have three people doing three different things?
blueand then all PRing it into master???
dreamrealActually, I'm working on an issue with nevet like that: #113. I think the scale of the original issue is right but too broad for now, so I'm fixing it based on a comment. But I can totally see someone else going "wait the integration layer is fine for this, what if we compare"
dreamrealJust because it's a PR doesn't mean it's ACCEPTED
blueyes; but an issue isn't accepted either; only when it's closed and merged onto master
dreamrealSo why would you presume otherwise for everything else? Lots of different workflows out there; it's nice to be prescriptive but not so great to be proscriptive. Remember RCS? SVN?
dreamrealHell, clearcase, which I'd forgotten about: IBM had a few of them, before git took over, some were great, others... not so great :D
blueHow is this proscriptive: the only thing the system would do is allow you to define rules for the repository. And the rules *I* would set is: no direct committing to master, only FF merges from issue branches. What's the problem?
dreamrealThat's a fine rule, and you should enforce it, especially for yourself, and nevet's about three steps away from it itself. nevet's been fast and loose so far mostly because this iteration was created on a lark, because I got annoyed at the streampack design enough to try something different one morning.
dreamrealAnd being proscriptive IN A TEAM is different than being proscriptive in a tool. Team proscriptions good, tool proscriptions baaaaaad.
blueyes, and I wasn't complainign about nevet, was I?
blue13:38 < blue> (not in nevet: as a general thing, I mean)
dreamrealNo, I was just making the comment. It's something people do when they converse.
dreamrealkarma changed, btw: subject lengths are ~= 45 chars (over that is considered to be conversation, not karma) and it has some other rules about specific names that help
dreamrealSo you can now talk about C++
dreamrealC++++
nevetC++ has neutral karma.
dreamreal:D
bluethat's great -- so we can finally talk like normal mortals?
blueNICE!
blueI'm glad you came around about that
dreamrealYes, it has an emdash cutout for morons who use typesetting rules WHEN THEY TYPE MANUALLY
dreamrealWell, you were so stupid and annoying about it that I wondered if there was a way to write karma to compensate for low IQ
blueof course, would have been better if you did that before I complained, but sometimes a man needs to see the results of his actions for himself
dreamrealand it handles C++ and J++ very specifically, and THIS is probably a karma action :D
dreamrealOoo
dreamrealI shoudl crank up logging in the karma to walk through how that didn't trip as karma - actually, it's probably the last J++
dreamreal(if a language is the last token in a subject, it assumes it's not a karma action)
bluenevet is gearing up to be almost perfect now
dreamrealYou have some very very very inconsistent measures of "perfect"
blueparse it as "ai perfect". fulfilling all my needs
bluedreamreal: what's the business case for nevet, anyway?
bluedreamreal: does nevet have an rss watcher service?
blueI mean, I can add it, I just don't see the point
dreamrealno, was just reporting what I found as I tested
blueis it for periodic caching?
dreamrealHEAD is expected to be lighter than GET so it's usually a good first test
bluehm
blue`According to the HTTP spec, a server should support HEAD anywhere it supports GET.`
dreamrealbasically "show me the headers, only the headers, that a GET would see so I can see if I want to download all 1.4MB of your CSS"
bluecan you file a primate issue?
dreamrealyes
bluesomething like: add an app option to mirror GET routes as HEAD unless a HEAD route was created manually
bluedefault: false
* Chronos likes "main" better than "master" because it's shorter
ChronosAm I allowed to have that preference for that reason?
dreamrealI find I struggle to care either way: master vs main is WAY under the TCP packet barrier, those two chars aren't going to make much of a difference
Chronos(Mostly just poking fun at the debate above, heh.)
dreamrealit deserves it
dreamrealChronos: so what did you think of teh safecracker thing?
blueI'm a bit conflicted how to namespace this feature.. putting it under http feels a bit too lowlevel
dreamrealWell it IS HTTP
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bluethat's why it'd be an opt-in with default false, since it's magic
* Chronos should probably upload his ancient IRC bot to GitHub for posterity.
dreamreal"Chronos: hey, the *proposal* at issue XYZ, does that look interesting? Shoudl we write it?" chronos: "Wow, that looks so cool now that I've stepped into the future and you already wrote it by the time I pretended to look at it!"
dreamrealbut the neat thing about the safecracker operation is that it literally changed timed events in nevet just by being proposed :D
ChronosGet'r'done!
dreamrealI mean, considering I was waiting for you to give it a thumbs up or thumbs down... now I can :D
dreamrealChronos: the safecracker thing made me revise timed events: now nevet has a tick operation that things can listen for. github and rss now use THAT with an offset timer ("last poll was X... next poll is Y... is it after Y yet?") which separates it from the cron scheduling they WERE using
ChronosVery nice
dreamrealRSS and github were fine with really coarse granularity, like hours and minutes... safecracker needs seconds
bluek. I'm actually gonna see how I can implement it in a way that's nondumb. because I don't want to create senseless HEAD routes for every GET route for which a HEAD route does not exist. it's gonna go in the request processing logic
bluethis is a classic case of "better data structures aren't good"
bluethe problem is primate doesn't even do this kind of matching... gonna have to wire it down
bluepossibly the HTTP router will need the same option
bluewhich is probably not a bad idea, anyway
ChronosJust testing something -- because I'm curious.
Chronosdreamreal: Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night ;)
dreamreal"I would have used a for loop here, as it's very clear and straightforward and complete idiots would understand but noooooo range(0,10).forEach( i->{}) it is, so karma isn't triggered
bluethis will probably need to become: OR `verb === "head" && verbs.get !== undefined`
dreamrealidiots untie!
bluebut that's only half of the story. would still need to serve only the heads, and a null body
blueheaders*
dreamrealwell
Chronosdreamreal: that's a deep subject to get into
dreamrealthat looks right BUT don't forget: HEAD is HTTP, so there's a lack of formal requirement
Chronos</dadjoke>
dreamrealHEAD *can* return the body
bluewe're talking about the autocase here
blueif you define a head route yourself, you're gonna get what you asked for
dreamrealI get it, BUT if you're going to rely on decay, I'd say "do the simple thing" and return the GET
dreamrealif someone wants only the HEAD content they need to say so, because it literally means different things, and the fallback is stating "no, they're the same for idiot clients"
bluedreamreal: I think you're actually mistaken here. the HTTP spec dictates HEAD must not return a body
dreamrealDoes it say it MUST not? Ooo, the W3C is getting good at last. Then there you are.
dreamrealthe specs plugin does not aggressively search, no
blueno, can I search the rfc body with nevet?
dreamrealNo, it doesn't cache the rfc body
bluebody of work, I mean
dreamrealEventually I'd like it to summarize the spec via AI but not yet
blue?rf http would return all rfcs containing 'http' in their titles
blue?rfc*
dreamrealyes, that'd be awesome but incredibly verbose
dreamrealbut like I said, it doesn't do that
bluemaybe do a 5 cutoff or so
bluethe thing is this: I needed to look the rfc first in my browser, and then I already had the link: so going back here and doing !rfc <n> was.. an indirection
bluelook up*
dreamreal"it has the wrong priority, dreamreal! You chose date order, it's OBVIOUSLY the relevant RFC I wanted first!"
dreamrealblue: Oh, I know.
bluean rfc title search would be useful, I think
bluepreferably case insensitive
dreamrealIt would, but I need to figure out the semantics for it
dreamrealsomeone should file an issue for that, actually
dreamrealwhile I'm working on other things :D
dreamrealthis also has the side effect of being spanned to the other specs: all the spec operations right now are peers, and search means specifics per spec class
blueask what's the http rfc defining how HEAD works?
nevetRFC 7231 defines HTTP/1.1 semantics, including the HEAD method. HEAD is identical to GET except the server must not send a message body in the response - only headers are returned.
bluefeelsbadman :(
blueit's 9110 NEVET
dreamrealtell anthropic, not nevet
dreamrealnevet doesn't care
dreamrealask what's the difference between rfc 7231 and rfc 9110
nevetRFC 9110 (2022) obsoletes RFC 7231 (2014) as the core HTTP semantics specification. RFC 9110 consolidates and updates the HTTP/1.1 specification with clarifications, corrections, and lessons learned from nearly a decade of implementation experience, while maintaining backward compatibility with the fundamental protocol defined in 7231.
blueask what's the http rfc defining how HEAD works; ignore obsoleted ones?
nevetRFC 9110 defines how HEAD works. It's the current HTTP semantics specification that replaced the obsoleted RFC 2616.
blueGOOD.
dreamrealhm, interesting potential revision for the ask - "ignore outdated references if more current references exist."
blueyes!
bluein which case, it IS nevet and not anthropic :P though the anthropic default is dumb here
blueanyway, I had it filed under HEAD must not have body, which I guess was standardised in 2014
blueso before, you'd have been right indeed
bluethis makes sense too for the caching use cache
blueuse case*
dreamrealNo, I'd have been WRONG, because I was suggesting that the behavior was SUPPOSED to be not to supply a body but that it didn't really matter, when the spec says compliance actually means something
dreamrealit still gets ignored a lot but that's not the point
bluebtw, interestingly, GET is the other way around: it must not have a body
dreamrealwait what
dreamrealGET ... the whole purpose is to get the body, o?
dreamrealno?
bluethe request
bluethe body must be null
dreamrealHEAD - headers, no body.. OH
dreamrealright, sorry, you're talking ingress
blueyou're talking about response
dreamrealright
blueso GET requests must not have a body, whilst HEAD responses must also not have a body
blueand I assume, HEAD requests must also not have a body
bluesince "otherwise identical"
dreamrealyeah
bluethe nevet algorithm can still be lazy, dreamreal
blueit can try for a HEAD request first
bluethe golden path is the server supporting it
dreamrealHEAD was *me*, not nevet
dreamrealnevet uses GET
bluegood
dreamrealHEAD was me going "what does this even respond with"
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* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
dreamrealversion
nevetnevet 1.0 | b3a39e4 (main) | Built 2026-02-27 09:05:20 EST
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ s _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s) -- 's' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman t
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ s _ _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s, t) -- No 't'. 3 lives left.
dreamrealhangman l
nevetHangman: l _ _ _ _ s _ _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, l, r, s, t) -- 'l' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman n
nevetHangman: l _ _ _ _ s _ n _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, l, n, r, s, t) -- 'n' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman g
nevetHangman: l _ _ _ _ s _ n _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, g, l, n, r, s, t) -- No 'g'. 2 lives left.
dreamrealhangman o
nevetHangman: l _ _ o _ s _ n _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, g, l, n, o, r, s, t) -- 'o' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman i
nevetHangman: l i _ o _ s i n _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, n, o, r, s, t) -- 'i' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman p
nevetHangman: l i _ o _ s i n _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, n, o, p, r, s, t) -- No 'p'. 1 life left.
dreamrealhangman m
nevetHangman: l i m o _ s i n _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t) -- 'm' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman u
nevetHangman: l i m o u s i n _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t, u) -- 'u' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman e
nevetYou got it! The word was 'limousine'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
dreamrealsafecracker
dreamrealhrm
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* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
dreamrealgrrr, gotta figure out what's going on there
dreamrealbut have other things I need to do
* nevet joined #nevet
* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
dreamrealsafecracker
nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
dreamrealpffft there it goes!
dreamrealsafecracker 1 2 3 4
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < < < < (4:46 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 5 5 5 5
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < < = < (4:37 to go!)
botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
dreamrealsafecracker 7 7 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > < = = (4:14 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 8 6 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > < = = (4:05 to go!)
botSafecracker: 3:58 remaining!
dreamrealsafecracker 9 8 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > = = = (3:57 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 0 8 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < = = = (3:52 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 2 8 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < = = = (3:36 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 3 8 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < = = = (3:30 to go!)
botSafecracker: 3:27 remaining!
dreamrealsafecracker 10 8 5 7
nevetError: Guess must be 4 digits (0-9) separated by spaces. Example: safecracker 3 0 3 0
dreamrealsafecracker 9 8 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > = = = (3:20 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 8 8 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > = = = (3:15 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 6 8 5 7
nevetdreamreal has broken the code! Way to go, dreamreal!
dreamrealwoo I'm the best!
dreamrealsafecracker
nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
dreamreal(don't play)
botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
botSafecracker: 3:58 remaining!
botSafecracker: 3:27 remaining!
botSafecracker: 2:57 remaining!
botSafecracker: 2:26 remaining!
botSafecracker: 1:56 remaining!
botSafecracker: 1:26 remaining!
botSafecracker: 0:55 remaining!
botSafecracker: 0:24 remaining!
botTime's up! The combination was: 9 6 3 3
dreamrealinteresting drift
dreamrealI know why it does it: it calculates the next offset from the timestamp and not the previous offset. Easy to fix.
* nevet joined #nevet
* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
dreamrealagain, please don't play
dreamrealkarma chronos
nevetchronos has karma of 3.
botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
dreamrealokay, cool. Evertything still runs, the game is just "an additional mechanism waiting for events."
botSafecracker: 3:59 remaining!
dreamrealdrift seems better already.
botSafecracker: 3:29 remaining!
dreamrealtag ide
nevetFactoids tagged 'ide': eclipse, ide, idea, and netbeans
botSafecracker: 2:59 remaining!
botSafecracker: 2:29 remaining!
botSafecracker: 1:59 remaining!
dreamrealthe safecracker isn't even an additional thread: it's actually a filter that watches for events that match a criterion.
botSafecracker: 1:29 remaining!
dreamreal"i'm going to ignore timer events until a tripwire is hit. Oh, look! There it is! Time notification."
botSafecracker: 0:59 remaining!
botSafecracker: 0:29 remaining!
botTime's up! The combination was: 1 3 4 0
dreamrealWoohoo! Drift fixed.
Chronosdreamreal: Can nevet handle hangman and safecracker being run at the same time?
dreamrealsafecracker
nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealsafecracker 2 1 1 2
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = < < < (4:49 to go!)
dreamrealhangman a
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a) -- No 'a'. 5 lives left.
dreamrealsafecracker 2 5 5 5
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (4:36 to go!)
dreamreal~hangman r
botSafecracker: 4:28 remaining!
dreamreal~hangman r
dreamrealhangman r
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r) -- No 'r'. 4 lives left.
dreamrealYou can play too, it's not tied to a single player!
dreamrealBut as you can see, yes
Chronossafecracker 2 7 5 8
nevetsafecracker result for someone: = > = > (4:00 to go!)
botSafecracker: 3:58 remaining!
Chronossafecracker 2 8 5 9
nevetsafecracker result for someone: = > = > (3:48 to go!)
dreamrealIt's ALL an event stream all the way down
ChronosWait, > means the actual # should be bigger, right?
botSafecracker: 3:28 remaining!
Chronossafecracker 2 9 5 10
nevetError: Guess must be 4 digits (0-9) separated by spaces. Example: safecracker 3 0 3 0
botSafecracker: 2:58 remaining!
dreamrealWait, where'd the safecracker notifications go
dreamrealsafecracker 2 4 5 2
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = < (2:47 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 2 8 5 9
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (2:39 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 2 7 5 8
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (2:33 to go!)
botSafecracker: 2:28 remaining!
Chronos"safecracker result for someone: = > = > (3:48 to go!)" — for "someone"?
dreamrealsafecracker 2 6 5 7
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (2:26 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 2 4 5 4
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = = (2:19 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 2 3 5 4
nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = = (2:15 to go!)
dreamrealsafecracker 2 2 5 4
nevetdreamreal has broken the code! Way to go, dreamreal!
dreamrealHrm
dreamrealhangman s
nevetHangman: _ _ _ s _ _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s) -- 's' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman n
nevetHangman: _ _ _ s _ _ _ n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, n, r, s) -- 'n' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman e
nevetHangman: _ _ e s _ _ _ n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, n, r, s) -- 'e' is in the word!
Chronoshangman i
nevetHangman: _ _ e s _ i _ n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, r, s) -- 'i' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman o
nevetHangman: _ _ e s _ i o n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, o, r, s) -- 'o' is in the word!
dreamrealhangman u
nevetHangman: _ u e s _ i o n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, o, r, s, u) -- 'u' is in the word!
Chronoshangman question
nevetError: Unknown hangman command. Use 'hangman' to start, 'hangman <letter>' to guess, or 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
dreamrealhangman solve question
nevetYou got it! The word was 'question'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
ChronosAww!
dreamrealSUCK it, chronos!
ChronosRobbed!
dreamrealBut to answer your question, yes, you can run as many things as a provenance will allow
dreamrealso you can't run two hangman games IN A SINGLE CHANNEL
dreamrealbut you could run hangman IN A CHANNEL and in PM
ChronosI had the reverse understanding of < and > in safecracker, but now my brain is fixed.
Chronosdreamreal: Why did nevet refer to me as "someone" instead of "Chronos"?
dreamrealbecause you don't have an identity in the bot
dreamrealhmm, that's a really good point
dreamrealfile an issue, please? Include that exchange (where I'm 'dreamreal' and you're 'someone', if you would)
dreamrealnick derivation is weird because it's actually related to the provenance identity: if you don't have a provenance, you're effectively anonymous to the event system
dreamreal(the job of an ingress provider is literally to format the ingress content for the message system... and assign provenance if possible.)
dreamreal"on IRC, I can match an IRC user to an identity like so... oh, wait, no match? anonymous it is!" ... but it SHOULD be propagating the nick as well
nevethangman: referred to me as "someone" rather than "Chronos" · Issue #61 · jottinger/streampack
Chronosoops wait, let me expand the example
dreamrealsafecracker did too
dreamrealthank you
Chronosupdated; that's better
dreamrealyou put it on streampack and not bytecode.news, though, didn't you :D
Chronoswait, now it lost our nickxs
Chronosstupid irccloud copy and paste. fixing
Chronosoops wait no
ChronosSorry. Wife was distracting me on and off. Brain short circuited.
Chronosdreamreal: Wrong place? I can delete and recreate in the right place
dreamrealwives are the WORST!
ChronosHeh!
dreamrealI am working on it, and issues for current nevet go on bytecode.news
dreamrealOkay. let's test something out
dreamreal21
dreamreal!21 matches
dreamreal21 matches
nevetA new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
dreamrealChronos: make a move there please
dreamrealChronos: ! where are you!
dreamrealSomeone make a move here, I need to check something
* dreamreal!~dreamreal@about/java/dreamreal changed the topic to: This is the channel for the development of the software that runs nevet: https://github.com/jottinger/streampack
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ e _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: e) -- 'e' is in the word!
Chronoshangman a
nevetHangman: a _ _ _ e _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: a, e) -- 'a' is in the word!
Chronoshangman s
nevetHangman: a _ _ _ e _ _ s _ (6/6 lives, guessed: a, e, s) -- 's' is in the word!
Chronoshangman d
nevetHangman: a _ _ _ e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, d, e, s) -- No 'd'. 5 lives left.
Chronoshangman c
nevetHangman: a _ c _ e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, s) -- 'c' is in the word!
Chronoshangman l
nevetHangman: a l c _ e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, l, s) -- 'l' is in the word!
Chronoshangman h
nevetHangman: a l c h e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, h, l, s) -- 'h' is in the word!
Chronoshangman m
nevetHangman: a l c h e m _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, h, l, m, s) -- 'm' is in the word!
Chronoshangman i
nevetHangman: a l c h e m i s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, h, i, l, m, s) -- 'i' is in the word!
Chronoshangman t
nevetChronos got it! The word was 'alchemist'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
dreamrealexcellent!
dreamrealsafecracker
nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
ChronosOnly ONE wrong guess. I'm THE MAN.
dreamrealyes, you're the man
Chronoshaha
dreamrealnow try safecracker
Chronossafecracker 5555
nevetError: Guess must be 4 digits (0-9) separated by spaces. Example: safecracker 3 0 3 0
Chronossafecracker 5 5 5 5
nevetsafecracker result for Chronos: > < > > (4:32 to go!)
botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
dreamrealthere we go!
dreamrealhangman
nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
Chronossafecracker 3 7 3 3
nevetsafecracker result for Chronos: < = < > (4:10 to go!)
dreamrealhangman solve gauntlet
nevetZero letters guessed and you nailed it? That's either genius or espionage. The word was 'gauntlet'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
botSafecracker: 3:59 remaining!
Chronossafecracker 4 7 4 2
nevetsafecracker result for Chronos: = = = > (3:45 to go!)
* dreamreal preens a little
Chronossafecracker 4 7 4 1
nevetChronos has broken the code! Way to go, Chronos!
Chronosdreamreal: haha :)
* blue joined #nevet
dreamrealyou got one wrong letter... I got no wrong letters at all. And didn't even need one GUESS.
ChronosMmmhmmm. ;)
ChronosElf needs food, badly.
* dreamreal whistles innocently.
dreamrealthanks, bug fixed I think
Chronos(Speaking of Gauntlet)
ChronosNick stuff looks good. Thanks!
bluedreamreal: I took the freedom to use nevet's config in that primate issue
bluemostly because... that's where I came across the need for the feature
blueI will probably only need BACKEND_NEVET in the primate code; but I might need other stuff like jwt, too
dreamrealyeah?
blueyes, so your comments are highly welcome
dreamrealhah, that's awesome
dreamrealand commented
bluethank you!
dreamrealhopefully it's useful
dreamrealtoday
nevetToday is Friday, February 27, 2026
dreamrealtoday hebrew
nevetToday is Friday, 10 Adar, 5786 (Hebrew)
bluedreamreal: yeah, the last open question is mostly for people who might not be comfortable with automatic env loading
blueyou MIGHT have an .env file which you can use for.. I dunno, a PRESTEP or something.
blueI can't think of a good reason for it, but also magic is often something people would at least like an escape hatch from
jreicherOh gosh I should have said anything about the trunk name. I'm sorry. Just call it "trunk". Or "dumbo".
jreicher^should^shouldn't
jreicherI was just teasing because I didn't think anyone really cared.
jreicherblue: at the risk of restarting an unproductive conversation, I do have a bit of an issue with this: "so you don't care when others make choices for you". That's vague bait. Both "yes" and "no" invalid answers. Other people make choices for us all the time. Sometimes long-dead people. The design of power sockets in every country is an example that comes to mind. It's not reasonable to care about that choice. Or at least not every
jreicherelement of it. But some choices, of course we should care about.
blueYou don't need to be sorry jreicher, I don't think anyone's hurt
jreicherWell, it's more about the time spent... :)
blueand also, to your point, yes, that's true. my parents made a lot of choices for me. the point was more like, things you can influence. I get dreamreal's position; he just doesn't care either way, so whatever's the current default works for him. He also didn't care when it was 'master'. For me though, it's different: because in the very least, this is unneeded friction that anyone with half a spine should have
blueobjected to
blueYou can of course don the Zarathustra position that you live on your mountain and nothing really touches you, but in the end everything touches you, that's why I quoted Obama on that. indecision is also a decision, just masked as none
blueif you don't go vote in elections... you're voting for the winner. not caring is not not taking a stance; it's just taking a stance that aligns with the winning stance
jreicherWhen working in a team I would be sensitive to the possibility that somebody else might be offended about the user of "master", and for that particular project such a person's feelings would give me a reason to change the trunk name even if I continued to be ambivalent about the default. I suspect dreamreal might be the same.
dreamrealyet you can draw up a fight on every last fucking thing in the world that you encounter and MIGHT disagree on, and you have that right, but it's EXHAUSTING and pointless. Fight on the things that matter. This one matters to you? Great! have at it! Every windmill deserves a tilt! ... but not everyone else sees the same dragon or cares, and sometimes that's how it be.
Chronosblue: What extra friction does main cause? (honestly curious)
bluewhy should you be sensitive though? the word master is ubiquitous in the English language; and at any rate, it does not refer to people here. So whoever is being offended is not doing it in good faith, and should just completely ignored
blueand any rate, offence is given, not taken
dreamrealyet that's a battle that's already been fought in shadowy halls where we do not care who treads
jreicherAnd take this in an even more cynical direction, I sometimes wonder whether arguing about this in the absence of a real person having real feelings is just performative. I would want to make sure people who argue so vehemently in the absence of hurt feelings are just as principled when there are real feelings at stake.
bluedreamreal: I get it that to YOU it's pointless. I conceded as much. To me it's not pointless though
dreamrealmaster vs main: I am not offended by either, even though I find slavery as a concept a horror tantamount to rape
dreamrealyes, and I accept that it's not pointless to you
bluedreamreal: that's not the point though, is it? the word 'master' has many uses; master key is hardly related to slavery. monkeypatching the slavery meaning onto a technical tool is dishonest at best, and downright evil otherwise
dreamrealjreicher: honestly, I think the whole master/slave thing was people desperate for a win in any forum in which they could get it, and in any ral forum they're utterly ignored
dreamrealany real forum, though
dreamrealthese people are not and were not winners
bluejreicher: this is not cynical at all. Not one living being is actually offended by the use of the term 'master' to name a technical aspect of a tool. Anyone who contends otherwise should be classified as certifiable
dreamreal"Let me show you how much I care by caring BALLS TO THE WALL about stuff that was actually irrelevant"
ChronosMy wife and I bought a new house last year; while searching, we noticed that "master bedroom" had a new name, "owner suite." Our realtor told us the change was because "master" was offensive... but that it turned out "owner" is also offensive, so now it's changing to "primary bedroom."
dreamrealhahahahahahaha
dreamrealof course, realtors are also the idiots of the white collar world
dreamrealif there are any realtors here, I'm sorry, I insulted you directly and you were to D U M B to notice
bluethe reason I don't flow with the "why do you care" argument is that it's a known woke tactic; under the guise of it, substantive changes are made to the language and thus to reality
Chronosblue: The crazy woke people ended up getting spanked very hard for their crazy wokeness, in the 2024 U.S. elections.
bluethe more interesting question to me is "why don't you care?"
dreamrealwell.. in reality, reality don't change
ChronosI keep telling people that Republicans didn't win in 2024; rather, Democrats lost, for getting so deep into Crazyville.
bluedreamreal: I have long believed that. but actually one thing leftists get right is that language does affect our thinking. it doesn't change reality per se, but it does strongly affect our perception of it, which matters greatly
dreamrealand the democrats are getting worse. I hate that, really: I despise the Democrats but we need a viable opposition party
dreamrealI just don't know what you'd call it such that it attracted the sane democrats
dreamrealthey just threw away this election cycle and the next, assuming the republicans have the brains god gave retarded gnats
ChronosI think it's okay — *good*, even — to be woke. But not crazy woke.
dreamrealman, that term is so overloaded
Chronosdreamreal: Are the Democrats getting worse? Or have they improved some, since Trump was elected?
dreamrealin most senses preceding the last ten years, I'm very woke
dreamrealChronos: did you see the SOTU?
dreamrealthey basically pissed away every american patriot
Chronosdreamreal: I did not. My assumption is that it would be mostly Trump boasting, and I've already heard a few lifetimes worth of his boasting.
dreamrealevery democrat who went "man, I don't like the GOP, but at least I love my country" got spat on
jreicherblue: what's the "missing workflow" you were talking about? issues=branches, you said
Chronosdreamreal: What did they (the democrats) do (or not do)?
dreamrealhe trolled them and they fell for it hook, line, sinker, rudder, propeller, keel, ballast, anchor, mast, sail, and dock
bluejreicher: I was mostly referring to the fact I'd like to see an issue-based workflow, and not artifically separate PRs and issues
dreamreal"stand up if you represent american citizens first" -- nope. "stand up and honor the mother of this murdered ukrainian girl" -- nope. "Let's clap for the hockey team!" -- nope.
dreamrealjust oevr and over and over again.
dreamrealSimple shibboleths... and they blew every one of them they could.
dreamrealwere they shibboleths? Of course they were. But shibboleths are easy: all you have to do is perform them!
blueit's funny how they can't just come out in favour of no men in women's sports. this is 101 sanity
Chronosdreamreal: Trump literally said "stand up if you represent american citizens first" and republicans stood up while no democrats did..?
dreamreal"Use a sibilant S, or you're an alien!" "sssss." "Okay, you're one of us."
bluethey're too afraid of their own woke minibase, dreamreal :P
dreamrealChronos: yes
dreamrealI don't know about NO democrats - I think a few did
dreamrealfetterman, at least one other
bluefetterman's not here
bluehe's in andromeda
bluethat doesn't count, regrettably
Chronosdreamreal: I assume it's because Democrats don't believe Americans should come before immigrants, or something to that effect?
bluethe joke still holds though that the only democrat with a brains is... brain-damaged
dreamrealChronos: *illegal* immigrants. "Do you represent illegals first, or american citizens?"
dreamrealThat's the formation.
bluewait, they didn't stand up for that?
blueWHY?
bluethat's like the total baseline
jreicherSorry, I'm a bit distracted. My partner is a little devastated her hamentaschen experienced side fall in the oven.
dreamrealTo congress. People whose oath of office is TO THE CONSTITUTION.
dreamrealI need to get some of those
bluejreicher: oh wow, damn it!
dreamrealthe local stores have crap like prunes
Chronosdreamreal: I guess I respect them for sticking by their morals (misguided as they may be).
dreamrealI guess I'm lucky that they HAVE hamantaschen
dreamrealChronos: their morals shoudl be to defend the constitution
ChronosRegarding clapping for the hockey team; bringing that up just seems... juvenile? I care about the hockey team at least as much as they care about *me*.
bluedreamreal: you know how they're call in eretz hakodesh?
dreamrealif their morals say "every human is equal before the constitution" then their morals are wrong
bluecalled*
dreamrealblue: oh no
dreamrealwhat
bluehaman's ears
dreamrealChronos: it's just tribal signalling but the tribe here is AMERICA
bluedreamreal: welp, the constitution is for americans, not for illegals
dreamrealand as jingoistic as that sounds, jingoism in SPORTS is a different thing than jingoism in politics
dreamrealblue: our constitution addresses all humans
Chronosdreamreal: Even if they believe what they're peddling — and I think they do — it seems painfully obvious to me their tactics are piss poor.
dreamrealbut citizens have representation aliens do not
bluedreamreal: is it though? I sincerely doubt that -- even if that's the interpretation of SCOTUS
Chronosdreamreal: Yeah, I just don't give a shit about the U.S. men's hockey team. Sorry. <shrug>
ChronosNot one little tiny shit.
ChronosBut then, I never got the whole sports thing.
dreamrealblue: no, there's a difference in how the constitution refers to people vs citizens
dreamrealChronos: well, it comes down to "our side" vs "their side"
ChronosPeople going absolutely bananas over "their team," when it's not even really "their team," just a bunch of strangers from far away who literally don't give a damn about them.
bluedreamreal: yes I get that, but it's not a meaningful difference. the constitution applies on american soil or to american citizens, which is it then?
dreamrealin sports, it's fully okay to go "hey, we won, they did not" even if the sport is irrelevant
dreamrealblue: yes
dreamrealit applies to both
Chronosdreamreal: Except "we" did not, in fact, win...
dreamrealan american citizen is defended by the constitution, no matter where they are
dreamrealChronos: hey, we certainly did if we're 'merican!
dreamrealOur team winned! Theirs didn't!
bluedreamreal: q, an american abroad is protected by the 1st amendment, yes no?
dreamrealWe, as citizens, contribute and participate in our olympic representation
dreamrealblue: for american purposes
ChronosEven "my" *local* professional sports teams are, well, not made up of primarily *local* people. The whole sports obsession thing seems utterly bizarre to me.
bluedreamreal: where does it say that in the constitution?
dreamrealif I go to thailand and run down the king, i do not have that protection there
ChronosI'm proud of the U.S. women's hockey team, though, for not accepting Trump's invitation, after he treated them badly.
dreamrealblue: That's a good question
dreamrealChronos: how did he treat them badly?
dreamrealWhat did he do?
bluethe constitution can't possibly apply outside of american soil. that would imply it has global jurisdiction
dreamrealChronos: he... invited them to the white house, just like the men's team
blueso the q becomes, if an american citizens is in canada and criticises the govt, can he prosecuted upon returning to us soil?
Chronosdreamreal: He said something less than kind while on the phone with the U.S. men's hockey team. Something about "he'll HAVE to invite the women too." It was just the kind of immature and juvenile "joke" I'd expect from him.
dreamrealChronos: oh my god
dreamrealI listened to that phone call
dreamrealI understand the sentiment but that was NOT what that call was saying
dreamrealAT ALL
ChronosHey, stop hacking the POTUS's phone!
dreamrealIT WAS ON TV
Chronos(JOKE)
blueiow, the constitution applies only to americans, so americans are protected from 1st amendment violations anywhere they are, as pertains to the american govt
dreamreal"Imagine the outrage if I don't invite the women's team too" -- cue outrage that he said there'd be outrage if he didn't invite the women's team
blueby extension, foreigners are not protected by that
dreamrealChronos: people are DESPERATE to hate Trump for everything, which is amusing because there's plenty to despise him for
Chronosdreamreal: Why would he say that?
dreamrealChronos: it's true!
dreamrealThat's why!
dreamrealI mean, is it Trump? Sure. But the interpretation being applied is ENTIRELY partisan
Chronosdreamreal: An adult avoids saying lots of things that are true, because saying them is foolish!
dreamrealI listened to it. It was not putting down the women's team at all. And the men? They were laughing at it, going "two for two!" -- CELEBRATING the womens' win as well
ChronosWhy bring it up *at all*?
ChronosWhat's wrong with him that he mentioned it *at all*?
dreamrealBecause it's trump, of course. I thought it was unnecessary - but it's not like some horrible offense like it's being made out to be
bluedoes anyone even watch women's hockey. I didn't even know it existed until now
ChronosCould *anything* good come from saying it?!
ChronosThe man needs to STFU *way* more.
dreamrealChronos: sure
dreamrealChronos: he was doing trump things. Mein Gott, think game theory
dreamrealHe's a MASTER of simple trolling
blueas long as he ends up bombing iran back to the middle ages...
bluehe can say whatever he wants
dreamrealhe's a dullard and a fool and an awful person, okay? But he leverages that and gets people to respond EXACTLY how he wants them
Chronosdreamreal: Well, it appears to have had some effect — the women's team turned down his invitation — do you consider this a positive outcome for Trump, or the Republicans, or men, or women?
dreamrealhe was laying track for the SOTU for EVERYONE to see. There's no way a moderately stupid Dem wasn't going "oh no, he's going to make this a patriotic thing, because it IS patriotic, and we're gonna have to agree that America won and celebrate it or else we're going to look like TRAITORS. Oh, well. let's look like traitors!"
ChronosI can understanding trolling when it benefits you or your team. I'm just not seeing the benefit to him or his team.
Chronoss/understanding/understand/
dreamrealAre you kididng me?
dreamrealDUDE
dreamrealhe just nuked the democrats MULTIPLE TIMES in the SOTU
Chronosdreamreal: Somehow, I don't think he was being that clever, and thinking that far ahead. I think you're giving credit where it's not due — but I suppose it's possible.
dreamrealI mean, I felt HORRIBLE for them
dreamrealfor THEM
dreamrealcan you imagine getting lapped by THAT moron over and over and over again?
dreamrealChronos: he does this same thing ALL THE TIME
dreamreal"He's only done this one trick 40X in a row, accidentally every time I'm sure"
ChronosOh, I don't think modern Democrats have a clever bone in their bodies. They have NO idea how to win a war.
dreamrealhe wrote abotu it IN HIS FREAKING BOOK
dreamrealwhich was ghostwritten, mind, but even so
ChronosDemocrats will try to win [unwinnable] battles because it's the moral thing to do, knowing fully well the whole time it'll lose them the entire war.
ChronosOr maybe they don't know.
Chronos(Moral thing to do — according to them.)
dreamrealHow is that a moral thing, to say "screw you" to a mother who lost her child?
dreamrealHow is it moral to go "oh look, a kid disabled thanks to a truck, screw that kid"
dreamrealhow is it MORAL to say "our constituents can pound sand, we want illegal aliens here"
Chronosdreamreal: Morals being subjective; it was the moral thing to do in their minds (I guess?).
dreamrealI mean, that may be their actual mores
dreamrealin which case I say they need to GTFO
dreamrealand trump gave them a chance to display those mores in full view of everyone
dreamrealand they took that chance
dreamrealThey'd rather despise trump and make sure everyone KNEW they despise trump, Trump hatred is more important than anything else
dreamrealand if that's your guiding principle, well, okay, cool. You suck. GTFO.
ChronosDon't look at me; I dislike both parties
* Chronos <- moderate
dreamrealI *do not like Trump*. I would not leave him alone in a room with my wife. i respect the office he inhabits, I suppose... and that's as far as it goes.
dreamrealI'm not moderate, I'm a liberal, screw you
bluewhat makes you a liberal
dreamrealI'm just a liberal in the old sense, not the new "omg puppies and rainbows and mushrooms and WE HATE EVERYTHING"
dreamrealI'm a liberal in the rationalist, flat-sense-of-worth humanism pattern
blueI don't know what it means
dreamrealI'm a classic liberal because I suspect power, focus on dignity, refuse to coerce, and demand fairness. I'm not a liberal in the modern tribal sense.
bluebut like, you still have a position on say, abortion, no?
blueis it closer to the D or R party
dreamrealI have a position on most things! And I'm very axiom-driven.
blueI didn't know classic liberal suspected power, I thought classic liberal would be like an assertion of god-given rights or whatever the christians call it
bluelife, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc.
blueI guess that's the same as what you said?
dreamrealsure.
dreamreali neither demand nor expect satisfaction along those lines from others. Those things are not theirs to dispense or control. Classic liberal.
ChronosWhat I like about Republicans is that they're super transparently evil. Benefit rich people? Fuck everyone else? Yep, yep, I like that I understand them to some degree, it means I can better predict their behavior and act accordingly.
blueyeah that's me too. though I don't like the label liberal. there's nothing liberal about it, I'm not 'open to new ideas'
blueI'm still mostly conservative in the sense of conserving things that have proved useful for uh, nearly forever
ChronosWhat I *dis*like about Democrats is they *really believe* their twisted morality is good and right; they've become deeply religious, which always make me super nervous.
dreamrealSee, I'd see both parties as transparently evil at the edges, but the democrats are transparently corrosive as well. Republicans win that one.
blueat least you *have* two parties, dreamreal!
bluehere we have a uniparty, and that's it
ChronosAt least with Republicans, if I need to, I can pretend to be a Christian, and even start going to some Church, and make all the right noises, and appear to fit in, and not get labeled "domestic terrorist."
dreamrealIt's funny, I see a lot more outsiders in the republican party than I do the democratic party
dreamrealthe democrats emphasize the ol' rainbow but when you look under the curtains, everyone has to think the same or else
ChronosWith Democrats, I have to support some of their insane agendas that hurt me, my family, and me neighbors, like, "Borders are racist."
bluealso, elon was not wrong with the idea of the American party. only it's probably never going to happen
Chronosblue: Are you a German citizen?
blueya, Chronos
bluesince... lemma look, 2019
Chronosblue: Where are you originally from? If you don't mind saying.
blueChronos: Israel
Chronosblue: Why did you decide to move to Germany and become a German citizen?
blueChronos: because Israel is the next best thing to hell on earth
ChronosOh! Wow. I had no idea. I thought Israel was very nice, modern, etc.
blueit's probably the only palce in the world that it's 100% good that it exists, and yet it manages to get out the worst in mankind, mostly not through any fault of its own
dreamrealit can be
ChronosHuh. Interesting.
blueIsrael was envisioned almost entirely differently than how it was supposed to be. The Holocaust and WWII made it an impossible place, because the human capital that was supposed to drive it got almost completely lost
bluethan how it came to be*
dreamrealit's actually a marvel that it exists at all
dreamrealwe Jews RAWWWWWWK
blueya
ChronosWell, it kind of looks like China will become the next superpower, as the U.S. continues its downhill slide.
ChronosTime to cozy up to them!
dreamrealDepends on the democrats, if they can regain power
dreamrealif they can't, the US may be okay
blueso imagine you wanna start a company, you have a bunch of REALLY talented engineers, like I mean supertalent, that for some odd unfathomable reason, no one wants to employ. and then almost just before you get to start working, like 90% of them vanish. and instead, you need to hire 90% completely unqualified idiots who have never done any proper work, in anything
blueso now those idiots start working for you, but they resent you like hell, hate you, and are sure you're the bane of their existence, even though you saved their sorry butts from riding camels all day long to fetch water
ChronosYou guys must hate Greta ;)
dreamrealI don't hate anyone that I know of
dreamrealI think she's going to have a hard time in any real world
dreamrealshe's been kind of abused by her caretakers
blueanyway, basically that's the story of Israel, as said, impossible
dreamrealher role in society is basically a yapping dog, too small to actually do anything beyond the yapping, until you get close enough that its needle teeth can bite you
blueand also the occassional "jews bad", because why not, why not just focus on climate issues
dreamrealshe's going to die unhappy and unloved unless she somehow figures it out for herself, which I doubt she'll do as long as she's enabled as a figurehead
dreamrealbut I don't HATE her
blueya, I don't hate anyone
bluethere are exceptions, but they're personal, not political
blueand they definitely don't apply to anyone I've never met
bluegreta is mostly in the pity box for me. she was obviously groomed by her parents to be this political puppet with no brains
dreamrealYeah, there're a few I suppose
dreamrealbut I don't know if I've met anyone I'd hate either, buber makes that hard
blueif she were born just 40 years earlier, she'd probably be with a child in a kibbutz :P
dreamrealit's part of why we should reach out to as many people as we can: we should collect personal impressions of everyone around us as much as we're able to tolerate
bluedreamreal: one of the best mapping of a reality is 'a man is a product of his time'. that of course doesn't excuse evil, but it serves to illustrate a lot of behaviour
blueI am, too, a product of my time, and so are you
Chronosdreamreal: What do you think the most concerning things is about Democrats? In terms of which of their polices would be the most harmful to the U.S.
ChronosIf you don't mind saying.
dreamrealChronos: the endless refusal to accept redemption.
jreicherblue: (I'm slowly catching up.) You mean that there should be a correspondence between branches and issues, rather than between branches and "code changes" (whatever that might mean, the ambiguity of which is perhaps what youa re reacting to)
jreicher?
Chronosdreamreal: Can you elaborate on that?
bluejreicher: ya. for me issues should represent a complete item of work that, when done, can be fast-forwarded as is to master
jreicherErr. FF? (Not the main topic here, but why would FF apply?)
bluebecause then maintainers can merge to master directly
dreamrealChronos: the democrats damn - and damnation is permanent. There is no recovery. You said a thing that we interpret TODAY as racist, therefore you are a racist, you are contemptible, you owe endless restitution and can never be redeemed, only a symbol of endless remuneration.
blueiow, it's the issue owner's job to make sure maintainers don't need to rebase. this is more or less how the linux kernel dev works, btw
jreicherblue: you mean without having to resolve conflicts? So you're saying PR submitter should stay ahead of master?
bluejreicher: yes. once you indicate to the maintainer that work is done, it should in at the tip of master, i.e. rebased, by you
jreicherI wouldn't use rebase. There are other ways of staying ahead of master. But I understand what you mean.
blueif there are conflicts, it's your code to resolve them, as the code owner / issue owner
blueit's your job*
jreicherYep, that's what I thought you meant. You want to save maintainers resolving conflicts with code they are less familiar with than the author.
bluemaintainer can focus on pure review
blueyes
dreamrealChronos: it doesn't matter than you said it 40 years ago, or that everyone around you said the same thing, YOU are racist because it is useful for them for you to be racist and you cannot EVER recover from that. Ever. But you better start paying into the coffers for it. Or else.
blue^
jreicherOK, so back to the "issue per branch" idea. Are you familiar with the notion of an agile "epic" or "feature"?
dreamrealChronos: and it's not me saying that because it's happened TO ME - this is the pattern you see in the dominant aspects of the Democratic party. There's your corrosive element... and add to it postmodernism, and what you get is active, corrosive EVIL, and I can't.
bluejreicher: yes, I am. those can be modelled as issues that never use their branches, or as something else
bluein the linux kernel's dev model though, you'd have hierachies
bluean epic 'maintainer' would pull from his issues, and signal to the master maintainer to pull
jreicherblue: OK, so if something is "too big" for one branch, you don't have a problem with it being done across multiple branches that contribute smaller changes to build to the final solution?
bluejreicher: yes, that's no problem. hierarchical issues are fully. not all issue branches must flow directly back onto master
bluefully ok*
jreicherOh but you would still have a branch for each issue.
blueit's fully ok to create subissues, and have all the subissues flow back to the 'epic'/'feature' issue
blueit's really almost entirely the same as the linux kernel dev system, I'd say
jreicherOK, so looks like there are two different things here. One is the maintainer's view, and the other is the contributor's view. You would want the maintainer to see only one branch, corresponding to the "epic", no matter how large it is, and ahead of master so that there are no conflicts. Right? So nothing partial, and nothing conflicting.
blueyes, pretty much
Chronosdreamreal: Thanks for that explanation. I can't disagree.
bluejreicher: but there could be several epic/feature branches
blueall ready at different times
blueand their maintainers could be different people
dreamrealWell, you should, because my verbiage here is pretty acidic - a register I don't prefer - but I'm annoyed, so that comes through. Sorry about that.The Buber reference was intentional and sincere and entirely relevant.
jreicherIt's an interesting idea. I have some sympathy for taking the maintainer's POV like that. But I think contributors should be able to do whatever they like. Branch without issues. Issues without branches. etc.
dreamrealif I could meet greta I would.
jreicherBut maybe the keep all that in their own fork
bluejreicher: yes, I understand it. but I also find it highly chaotic. in your typical github repo, you have many issues; and many people randomly sending in PRs. a lot of this work might not be relevant at the time of creation, or end up being wasted, or repeated. issues focus work: especially if they can be first 'accepted' by maintainers, before work is started on them
blueyou can still do your own work in your own repo, if you so wish. but you just can't randomly PR it without having it on an issue branch first
jreicherWhich again is the maintainer's POV. And that's fine.
jreicher(IMO)
jreicherIt's a bit like saying you can write an email in whatever language you choose. It has to be one the recipient can read.
jreicher^can^can't
jreicherdammit
blueyes
bluein the end, it's about expectation management
blueI personally onyl want to start working on an issue that has been accepted, and where no one else is working on it
blueif the issue's not been accepted, or someone else is working on it.. well, I might be wasting my time
blueusing issues as an expectation system mean the maintainer can't really 'complain' later about the method, only about the code
jreicherMind you, if people want to work in chaotic ways, and you are witness to it but are otherwise unaffected, I often think the best reaction a deep breath, perhaps a little cry, and then leave them to it. You probably have better things to do.
bluemeans*
blueyes, but also, this creates unnecessary friction. I have a long-standing open PR in my project where someone used AI to generate docs. I don't really want to reject it outright at the moment, because it's a user, but I also am probably not going to merge it. and it is my fault for not having set up the expectation framework properly
bluethis situation would be impossible in the issue-based system I just theorised
blueI want to encourage contribution: but at least on my own terms, in some basic acceptance-framework-based way
jreicherOh I see your concern now. You (also) want to smooth over the relationship between maintainers and contributors.
blueI have no real problem btw even with the fact it was AI-generated. but the PR is so random that it satisfies almost none of what *I* envisioned for this docs section
blueit's *less* work for me to fully reject than work through the problems with the contributor
jreicherThis is reminding me of the experience people have submitting to Emacs. They don't always like what the maintainers say.
blueand again, this is my fault for not having communicated intent properly
blue*I* should have defined acceptance criteria for this, and I haven't, and since the since is open, the guy jsut went ahead and sent a PR
bluesince the system*
blueI just want to make it clear I don't blame him, it's my fault here, and the fact I can't really set it up technically the way I want to, on github
jreicherHave you asked him what he wants to do in this situation?
jreicherHe might be prepared to modify the PR with your feedback
blueI haven't, mostly because this needs a full rewrite, and the code the docs are based is moving too fast right now
blueit's just not ready yet for docs
bluewhich is one of the reasons I haven't documented it myself, yet
blueif this was strictly issue-based, the guy could have opened an issue: but not done any work on it until it was accepted
bluebased on*
bluesince it's my project, there are many 'implicit' things I haven't done: I know I need to do it, but I'm also not opening an issue for every little thing, because I don't want to use the issue tracker as a reminder system
bluethings that are still in that cosy place of, needs to be done, but too far away that I don't even want to open an issue about it, just stay in brain or local text file. they're so far away I can't even commit to a shape
blueheck, I don't even know if it's one or many shapes, that's how far it is
blueI can barely discern it in the distance myself
blueI don't want the issue tracker to become a graveyard of "this is something I wanna do at some point in the next decade"
bluebecause I could fill it to the brim with THAT kind of quality
jreicherIt might be worth talking to them anyway. It's not about what might happen next, but about your concerns for their expectations and understanding of what they can do.
jreicherAnd gives you "practice" at the relationship (since you seem to be interested in this)
blueyeah, I might do that
blueanother thing, jreicher, that I'm missing in gh are proper broads. they have like a 'projects' feature that yet a third look into what the project is doing. I'd very much prefer a broad kanban view of the issues that tells me, ok, those are the long-term things dreamreal is working on for nevet, and this is where the project is heading. instead there's this weird 'projects' feature that is totally parve
blueproper boards*
jreicherThat's an interesting idea. I wonder if any forges have that.
bluethere used to be a website that did it super nicely, it was called pivotaltracker. not far from today's trello, but much better organised. let me see if I can find a screenshot of how it looked like
* jreicher prepares himself for the first sight of Netscape he's seen in years
blueit's not that old, just like 5 years in the past or so
jreicherChronos: I don't think it's a given that China will become the next superpower. I suspect the governance structure they have is not sustainable. Too much depends on the personal competence of Xi Jinping, and nobody lives forever. One of democracy's biggest strengths is that the system is "designed" to survive changes in people, constantly trying to cultivate competent replacements.
jreicherdreamreal: what you call "damnation" would be called "cancel culture" over here.